Ill-Defined Problem Sets: A Discussion

[Ron Humphrey]

A,B,C,Z

Honestly the truth is you may find few aside from the august (said old guys) who feel even marginally up to the task of giving you the type of directions which you would go in the given areas. It's rather difficult to truly face the tasks we (the American people) have asked you guys to undertake although perhaps that's the point. If we're not ready to accept and give greater consideration to the facts as they may well be on the ground before you are sent in then there will likely be quite a few important questions which have to be answered on the ground at a much higher price than might have been otherwise.

So for now I like others will wait to absorb the wisdom of others in helping to direct you down the path and hopefully learn quite a bit in the process.

ps: in reference to your last post

Did you confront any of those you recognized from the video and when(if) they answered was there a notable shame or was it more like someone talking about a dream they had?

[MikeF]

Thanks for taking the time to read the thread Ron.

ps: in reference to your last post

Did you confront any of those you recognized from the video and when(if) they answered was there a notable shame or was it more like someone talking about a dream they had?

Eventually, I'll tell the whole story. My initial reaction was that everyone in that town was simply evil and needed to die. After I let the anger pass, I tried a tactic that would typically be frowned upon in a cultural awareness class on Iraq- I used shame.

I brought every leader from that town into our patrol base, and I forced them to watch the video. I hovered over them as they cried and swore "Wallah, Wallah (I swear, I swear)." After the video ended, I told them that I was disgusted to be around them, they were not true Muslims, and they would probably burn in hell.

Then, I told them that they had no right to be around me or my men, and I kicked them out...

I suppose that is probably a politically incorrect answer, but it worked. I was able to gain more wasta (power) over them in subsequent talks.

A,B,C,Z

Honestly the truth is you may find few aside from the august (said old guys) who feel even marginally up to the task of giving you the type of directions which you would go in the given areas. It's rather difficult to truly face the tasks we (the American people) have asked you guys to undertake although perhaps that's the point. If we're not ready to accept and give greater consideration to the facts as they may well be on the ground before you are sent in then there will likely be quite a few important questions which have to be answered on the ground at a much higher price than might have been otherwise.

So for now I like others will wait to absorb the wisdom of others in helping to direct you down the path and hopefully learn quite a bit in the process.

That is the point. It is important to remember that my company was only a small player during the "Surge" working as a supporting effort in denied areas. This thread is not supposed to be about our deeds; I was simply able to start telling the story. Some commanders have told their story (Neil Smith pops to the top of my head), and I'm hoping that others will share their experiences so that we can all learn.

I'm sure that my brothers in Afghanistan are currently facing similar situations or worse, and the least I can do from my armchair is discuss how I worked through my issues.

SWJ is one forum where we can discuss relevant issues in a non-partisan manner. The only issue surfaces when some try to replace theory with practice. Every think tank wannabe has an opinion until you talk facts. I hope to avoid that.

v/r

Mike

[davidbfpo]

Mike F,

Thanks for those posts on the dilemmas and one way to move ahead.

Similar, less violent dilemma in Afghanistan the other day: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08...ce-afghan-mob/

Faced by rioters, curiously with the ANP giving support, 82nd Airborne exit a village instead of conducting searches. One wonders what the patrol commander did when he got back to the FOB - with the eight ANP.

davidbfpo

[marct]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for sharing that story. As to your solution being politically incorrect, it probably is but, you know what? I would have done the same thing. Not to have done something on that order would have been taken as a sign of both weakness and lack of, hmmm, "constancy in service" (or to a goal) is probably the best phrase. There is a concept of what almost might be called "Fate" that runs through much of the region - as in one if fated to do X, Y and Z. This tends to move those so touched to act outside of the everyday cultural expectations and touch the "sacred". BTW, it's also what a lot of the AQ crowd have been drawing on. You tagged into that cultural narrative.

Back to your earlier question of what advice I'd give, really my previous post contained it. I can't really give more specific advice without actually being there and seeing the situation .

Cheers,

Marc

[MikeF]

As to your solution being politically incorrect, it probably is but, you know what? I would have done the same thing. Not to have done something on that order would have been taken as a sign of both weakness and lack of, hmmm, "constancy in service" (or to a goal) is probably the best phrase. There is a concept of what almost might be called "Fate" that runs through much of the region - as in one if fated to do X, Y and Z. This tends to move those so touched to act outside of the everyday cultural expectations and touch the "sacred". BTW, it's also what a lot of the AQ crowd have been drawing on. You tagged into that cultural narrative.

1. From the feedback that I've received from various junior leaders across the board, it seems that many are confusing being nice for being respectful. The damn phrase of "winning the hearts and minds" is being translated into never upset anyone. That is simply wrong, and I've seen too many soldiers get killed from those mistakes.

2. Never say never. We soldiers, not anthropologist. We use our understanding of cultural awareness to accomplish our mission not write an extensive ethonography on that nation's culture. Many times I learned through blunt trauma, but I did learn that you should never rule out any tools in your kitbag.

3. Relationship building. We operated in and around Zaganiyah for nearly nine months before this incident. I developed extensive relationships with both the Sunni and Shia tribes. I never took sides. Right before we entered Zaganiyah, I had the local IA commander arrested b/c he was commiting his own autrocities and feuling the local civil war (he was a shia from Kharnabhat, an adjacent town). I tried my best to stay neutral and only take action when necessary. Plus, I rarely raised my voice. So, when the appropriate time came to do so and show anger and disgust, it was respected.

4. In reality, at least in Diyala Province, yelling is the first part of any negotiation. It usually works like this...

1/3- Offended parties yell at each other in heated, exaggerated shows of emotion.
1/3- Arbitrator (Typically sheik or imam) calms everyone down and the discuss a reasonable solution
1/3 - Hugs, Man kisses, chai, and cigarettes. Everyone celebrates.

It is an odd way to do business, but it works for them.

v/r

Mike

[marct]

Hi Mike,

1. From the feedback that I've received from various junior leaders across the board, it seems that many are confusing being nice for being respectful. The damn phrase of "winning the hearts and minds" is being translated into never upset anyone. That is simply wrong, and I've seen too many soldiers get killed from those mistakes.

I've seen grad students sent to mental institutions trying to "never upset anyone" and worrying about the "inherent power imbalance between the ethnographer and the informant" .

2. Never say never. We soldiers, not anthropologist. We use our understanding of cultural awareness to accomplish our mission not write an extensive ethonography on that nation's culture. Many times I learned through blunt trauma, but I did learn that you should never rule out any tools in your kitbag.

Agreed and, BTW, that holds for doing good ethnographies as well. Even though our (Anthropologists) mission is to write ethnographies, never say never is a damn good motto for us, too, and too few use it .

3. Relationship building. We operated in and around Zaganiyah for nearly nine months before this incident. I developed extensive relationships with both the Sunni and Shia tribes. I never took sides. Right before we entered Zaganiyah, I had the local IA commander arrested b/c he was commiting his own autrocities and feuling the local civil war (he was a shia from Kharnabhat, an adjacent town). I tried my best to stay neutral and only take action when necessary. Plus, I rarely raised my voice. So, when the appropriate time came to do so and show anger and disgust, it was respected.

Yup. I've seen wanna-be ethnographers (some with tenure) go into areas and tell the locals what they "should" be doing. Thankfully, I've never had to work under any of these twits, but they are there. Most cultures recognize everything that we would call a "relationship" (there actually aren't that many different forms), even though they rate them differently. Sounds like you tagged into one that they recognized pretty well.

4. In reality, at least in Diyala Province, yelling is the first part of any negotiation. It usually works like this...

1/3- Offended parties yell at each other in heated, exaggerated shows of emotion.
1/3- Arbitrator (Typically sheik or imam) calms everyone down and the discuss a reasonable solution
1/3 - Hugs, Man kisses, chai, and cigarettes. Everyone celebrates.

Sounds like my wife's version of conflict resolution ! So, the key, then, lies in the arbitrator position. It sounds like you put yourself in the place of the arbitrator in a way they weren't expecting.

Cheers,

Marc

[MikeF]

I've seen grad students sent to mental institutions trying to "never upset anyone" and worrying about the "inherent power imbalance between the ethnographer and the informant" .

Agreed and, BTW, that holds for doing good ethnographies as well. Even though our (Anthropologists) mission is to write ethnographies, never say never is a damn good motto for us, too, and too few use it

Yup. I've seen wanna-be ethnographers (some with tenure) go into areas and tell the locals what they "should" be doing. Thankfully, I've never had to work under any of these twits, but they are there. Most cultures recognize everything that we would call a "relationship" (there actually aren't that many different forms), even though they rate them differently. Sounds like you tagged into one that they recognized pretty well.

Hi Marc,

In grad school, I was fascinated by the subject of anthropology, but I always thought it a bit presumptious that one could believe that they could penetrate a society without making waves.

It reminds me of all the times that we had embedded reporters within our unit. Guys would put on all their tricked out "kits" around the photographers and pose hoping to get the "GI Joe" photo-shot. I imagine that it is the same for villagers when an anthropologist comes to town. Some will posture, others will exaggerate....In the end, the visitor becomes a bit of amusement outside their normal day to day life.

Sounds like my wife's version of conflict resolution ! So, the key, then, lies in the arbitrator position. It sounds like you put yourself in the place of the arbitrator in a way they weren't expecting.

Good analogy. I only wish that dealing with wives was as simple as dealing with tribal sheiks. At least the locals are from earth. Women are from Venus

Best,

Mike

[Greyhawk]

Mike F,

Thanks for those posts on the dilemmas and one way to move ahead.

Similar, less violent dilemma in Afghanistan the other day: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08...ce-afghan-mob/

Faced by rioters, curiously with the ANP giving support, 82nd Airborne exit a village instead of conducting searches. One wonders what the patrol commander did when he got back to the FOB - with the eight ANP.

davidbfpo

I submit the 'on the bright side' explanation that "As ugly as it was, we were able to confirm there is anti-coalition sentiment in Tokchi'' as one of the great military quotes of all time.

Less off-topic, MikeF, you are going to ultimately write a book, right?

[Kiwigrunt]

...MikeF, you are going to ultimately write a book, right?

I'd buy it.

[MikeF]

Less off-topic, MikeF, you are going to ultimately write a book, right?

Eventually, I'd like to write a book, but it'll probably take several years. I'm going to allow some more time and space to allow me to get it right. For now, I'll publish an occasional paper on SWJ and comment on threads to try and provide some assistance to the younger guys out actually doing the fighting.

Additionally, I send most of my writings to my former O's and NCO's. We were very close (Band of Brothers like), and they fact check my work to make sure I get the details and sequence of events correct. Plus, they keep reminded me of how awesome they were and want their story told. In fact, that will probably be the best part of the story- the people involved to include our final IA Company.

I'd buy it.

Thanks KiwiGrunt.

Back to this thread, I'm still hoping some of the other military guys will comment on how they have tackled these problems in the past.

v/r

Mike