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Thread: Origins of American Bellicosity

  1. #21
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default 500 not 50,000

    My typo error to have written 50,000. The religious wars which did involve Baptists vs. Mormons (I was raised as a Southern Baptist and know the dogma pretty well) was in several states, not just Utah, and ran from Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois to and including Utah over a period of years preceding and gain immediately after the US Civil War.

    The conglomerate numbers killed on both sides over many years was estimated in putting bits and pieces together at more like 500, not 50,000.

    A major goof on my part, and I do apologize!

  2. #22
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default Scoti is Gaelic for Irish, per research copied here

    I continue to stake my long term historic position that the oldest I can find use of Scoti means and refers to Irish/being Irish/of Ireland.

    Thus I use the analogy that "Scot Irish" in linguistics is the same as saying "Irish Irish" when translated.

    The geopolitics of Northern Ireland are much later in history and are not considered at all in my older research dating back to Roman times.

    I appreciate your comments but disagree to the extent I have just re-explained here. All points of view are welcome, but mine is driven in part by family history...circa 1400 an Irish priest named Gillis, which line my Mother was descended from, was sent to the Highlands.

    There as was common in frontier priest postings he married and had 12 children, while continuing to practice his vocation as a Roman Catholic Priest.

    My Great Grandfather Donal Gillis was a Cumberland Presbyterian minister in Elba, Alabama. After the Civil War his area had lost so many men in that war that his Presbyterian and a local "hard shell" Baptist Church agreed to merge to have enough people to support one unified church. Donal Gillis won over the Baptist minister in a coin toss, then as the Probate Judge of Coffee Co., Ala. Judge Gillis appointed the ex-Baptist minister he just defeated for the merged church pastorate as his Chief Clerk of the Probate Court!


    The earliest accounts of the Scotti are from Roman sources, particularly Ammianus Marcellinus who describes their relentless raids on Roman Britain. The Scotti are confirmed by later sources to be the Gaelic speaking inhabitants of Ireland.

    Scoti or Scotti was the generic Latin name used by the Romans to describe those who sailed from Ireland to conduct raids on Roman Britain. It was thus synonymous with the modern term Gaels. It is not believed that any Gaelic groups called themselves Scoti in ancient times, except when referring to themselves in Latin

    In the 400s, these raiders established the kingdom of Dál Riata in the Highlands. As this kingdom expanded in size and influence, the name was applied to all its subjects – hence the modern terms Scot, Scottish and Scotland.

    The origin of the word Scoti or Scotti is uncertain. Charles Oman derives it from the Gaelic word Scuit (a man cut-off), suggesting that a Scuit was not a general word for the Gael but a band of outcast raiders.[2] In the 19th century Aonghas MacCoinnich of Glasgow proposed that Scoti was derived from the Gaelic word Sgaothaich

  3. #23
    Council Member J Wolfsberger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Blair View Post
    The whole "Scots-Irish" thing is, IMO, really overdone. It MIGHT be there if you really want to reach for it, but I honestly don't think that anything Rosen is talking about is especially "unique" to Americans. If anything I might take the position that our reputed bellicosity has its roots in the (possibly perceived) existence of outside threats to the existence of the nation and from emulating the example of the British in many ways.
    Steve, I'm with you.

    Americans are a warlike people, which is the only (!?) reason we've had so many wars, and since we've had so many wars we must be a warlike people? And it's all because 300 years or so ago a bunch of Puritans came over, followed by a couple of hundred years of Scottish and Irish, who defined a warlike culture (to the exclusion of Germans, Poles, Italians, Chinese, et. al.)?

    The paper seems circular and very simplistic. I expect more from Rosen.
    John Wolfsberger, Jr.

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  4. #24
    Council Member Greyhawk's Avatar
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    Default Tradition

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    ...The Irish and Germans, as Steve said, joined the Army in large numbers -- the Scotch Irish did not; fighting was fun, not work and people telling you what to do reminded them of the British and those snooty Anglicans -- but oh, by the way, give a War -- they'd appear.
    My mother tells the story from her memory of her father - a World War ONE battlefield vet, coming home one day in December '41 and telling his sons "you'd better oil up your guns, boys." The four who were old enough did.

    Grandpa McDowell once told a too-young-to-appreciate-it (or write it down) me tales of his grandfather who fought (for Ohio) in the Civil War. (But these were not two-fisted tales of glory, in fact they were rather dull to my 12-year old ears.)

    He was, however, a Deacon in the local church and one of the quietest men I've ever known. I wouldn't be surprised if those seven words above were all he had to say regarding Pearl Harbor.

  5. #25
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    Default Agreed & agreed ....

    from JohnWolf...
    The paper seems circular and very simplistic. I expect more from Rosen.
    and

    from Fuchs
    I wouldn't dig deeper than at most two generations to find reasons for modern phenomenons.

    You may search for a root cause and find it, but that root cause would have become irrelevant if in the meantime another factor had changed the outcome. The lack of such another factor is as important as the root cause.
    All very logical.

    Logic, real history and archaeology can also be applied to the homeland of the Gaels (Scotland and Ireland). The map (attached) from Fuchs' linked Wiki illustrates the geography from the Mesolithic until now. The red area has been a "common market" since that time - flows of peoples, technologies, commerce, etc. Not surprisingly, Southern Ireland has had more inputs from Wales and Cornwall - and from France and Spain. Northern Ireland has had its primary inputs from Scotland. And so, a bit more "Pictish" than the South - but read on.

    When did it all begin and from whence the peoples of Ireland. I buy this, as to the Mesolithic:

    The first humans in Ireland are thought to have crossed from Scotland, in wooden boats, to what is now county Antrim around 8000BC. It is also thought that the rising land and rising sea levels may have moved at a fluctuating pace, occasionally allowing the southern land bridge to re-emerge from the Irish Sea, as well as a northern one connecting Antrim to Scotland. These would have lasted only briefly, but would have allowed the migrations of both humans and animals. There is a cultural continuity between the mesolithic remains found in north Ireland and those in southern Scotland. Ireland was one of the last parts of western Europe to have been settled by humans, and the human presence here is perhaps only about 10,000 years old.
    and as to the Neolithic:

    It would be a mistake to think that the Mesolithic people of Ireland suddenly invented farming and became Neolithic. Rather, Ireland's Mesolithic hunters were displaced or assimilated by Neolithic settlers who gradually arrived in Ireland from Britain and brought the technology with them. The practice of farming had spread from the Middle East, through eastern and southern Europe to reach Britain around 4000BC. Again it seems that it arrived in Ireland via the Scotland-Antrim link. Evidence from Cashelkeelty, county Kerry, suggests that this happened between 3900BC and 3000BC [4 p28].
    So, whatever you want to call the Gaels, the settlement of Ireland and its population came from Scotland - not the other way around.

    Scotland and Ireland, like most nationalities, tribes and families, have their own mythology - the received narrative. That has nothing to do with logic, real history and archaeology. The Gaelic (Irish and Scottish) myth of Scota is a good example.

    The myths and received narratives create a perception of reality, which as we see in current affairs, military and political, is often more powerful and devastating than what a totally logical person would reach from true reality.

    And, that perception is what we have to deal with in the Small Wars context.

    Now, if I can find one of Ken's Scotch-Irish girls:

    ... noted for their wanton ways - loud, rowdy and very tough girls, and the genre itself for the huge numbers of kids they had and their willingness ... to hop in bed with or marry outside the clan or sept ...
    My son needs a mate.

    Cheers

    Mike
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    I subscribe it to an eye for an eye is more fun than turning the other cheek. Until you figure out the other guys doesn't just sit around waiting for you to take his eye.

    Europe has figured out the other guys doesn't just sit around waiting for you to take his eye. Every couple of decades we forget it and expect to be greeted as liberators.

    Maybe because every once in a while we actually are greeted as liberators and Europeans never were.
    Quote Originally Posted by SteveMetz View Post
    Sometimes it takes someone without deep experience to think creatively.

  7. #27
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default The Irish however helped Christianize Scotland

    Mike:

    Interesting theory...but Scotland was moved into Christianity by Irish coming up into Scotland, which otherwise was thinly people by ex-Scandanavians, the vikings and such.

    George

    PS - This whole "topic" misses the mark in that America's ethnic make up was done in phases...but at first we were people by "everybody"...Maryland was a Roman Catholic religious colony in the beginning...Pennsylvania was a Quaker colony....New York was earl on Dutch...the Carolinas and much of Virginia were Scot Irish...Georgia was largely, initially English bread thieves (some of my early on Singletons landed at Savanna and were 7 and 14 year indentured white slaves, bread thieves)...Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas were largely Spanish, then French, then "British"...more Scot Irish folks, etc. George.

  8. #28
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    Default But, the Scots helped Christianize Ireland ...

    Hi George,

    Patrick was born at Banna Venta Berniae, in what is today the county of Cumbria. Cumbria is about as close to Scotland as you can get without being a blue-woaded Pict. Now, I have stretched it a bit (a few klicks) to claim Patrick as a Scot. Some Scots claim him as a native of Sthrathclyde, which included Cumbria (see map in the Wiki). These Sthrathclydeans roughly correspond to the western Scottish Lowlanders, who have been a substantial input over the centuries into Ulster.

    Patrick's church was very much centered at Armagh, Ulster - still a cathedral town to both the Church of Ireland and the Roman Church. Columba, of Donegal, Ulster, is the best known missionary to Scotland; although more came from the Strathclyde region (e.g., Ninian of Whithorn, Galloway) - the areas just south and north of Hadrian's Wall were centers of Christianity in Roman Britain. Columba (7 Dec 521 – 9 Jun 597) labored well before the Scandahoovians became a nuisance in Scotland.

    Scotland was well enough populated by Gaels and Picts in Columba's time. We reach some firmer ground in seeing Scotland's as an organized entity in the time of Kenneth MacAlpin (ca.810-858), who probably was a Pictish-Gael mix (IMO; if he's your ancestor, feel free to stake out your own ground). The formation of Scotland was, therefore, a fusional process (the Vikings also hit the beaches in MacAlpin's time):

    The Pictish institution of kingship provided the basis for merger with the Gaelic Alpin dynasty. The meeting of King Constantine and Bishop Cellach at the Hill of Belief near the (formerly Pictish) royal city of Scone in 906 cemented the rights and duties of Picts on an equal basis with those of Gaels (pariter cum Scottis). Hence the change in styling from King of the Picts to King of Alba. The legacy of Gaelic as the first national language of Scotland does not obscure the foundational process in the establishment of the Scottish kingdom of Alba.
    Now, this long circular digression does have a point - which is agreement with your ultimate point:

    from GLS
    PS - This whole "topic" misses the mark in that America's ethnic make up was done in phases...but at first we were people by "everybody"...Maryland was a Roman Catholic religious colony in the beginning...Pennsylvania was a Quaker colony....New York was earl on Dutch...the Carolinas and much of Virginia were Scot Irish...Georgia was largely, initially English bread thieves (some of my early on Singletons landed at Savanna and were 7 and 14 year indentured white slaves, bread thieves)...Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas were largely Spanish, then French, then "British"...more Scot Irish folks, etc. George.
    ultimately a fusion process, which still continues.

    Regards,

    Mike
    Last edited by jmm99; 08-12-2009 at 04:21 AM.

  9. #29
    Former Member George L. Singleton's Avatar
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    Default Bellicosity/ethnic blends names, etc.

    Mike:

    Thanks for your very scholarly agreement...overlooking my many typos...arthritis in hands is worsening despite evening applications of good SINGLETON Single Malt Scotch!

    One of our daughters (two degrees from Vanderbilt U. in Nashville) did her Vandy overseas, long 6 month semester at University of Edinburgh. She is a Shakespear Scholar but took some electives, too, in Gaelic History and Culture, which give her, more than me, an educated view of the era(s) and events in both Scotland and Ireland (one course she took at U. of Edinburth was about Gaelic Lingusitic Culture and History) long before the late 1300's migration of my ancestor, the Roman Catholic Priest named Gillis, my Mother's line.

    Raw individualism and bellicosisty are in fact historic traits of the Gaelic speaking populations whereever found, including in coastal France.

    One of the great tragedies of the American Civil War was the decimation of Northern and Southern Irish (Gaelic speaking) troops in major battles in Virginia, particularly. The South had very many Roman Catholic Gaelic speaking troops, as did the North.

    My Great Grandfather Donal Gillis was wounded by a cannon ball to his right knee in Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. He of course permanently lost the use of his right leg from the knee down.

    His line of Gillises landed at Wilmington, North Carolina 1799, having sailed from Liverpool, England. I have the 1700's era key wound engraved silver watch his forebears had when they landed in North Carolina. These Gillises came from the Highlands of Scotland, with the oldest traceable one being from Ireland, the Gillis who was a Roman Catholic priest sent to Scotland in the late 1300s.

    Some of my maternal Great Grandmother's line, Lightfoots and Brennen's, came to the US via Philadelphia, PA from England...and from Ireland.

    We even have some Italian ancestors among another diminsion of my Mother's side of the family, who landed in Charleston, SC area well before the American Revolutionary War and changed their name to "Cox" from a name I can no longer remember how to spell in Italian. Likewise we had some Italian Bonsalls on Mom's side of the family, her Great Grandmother having been a Bonsall.

    Melting pot we are...but in Afghanistan and Pakistan stand offish tribalism is a real problem, unable to learn how to cherish cultures while still learnign to live with and get along with others from different tribes, cultures, and backgrounds.

    Have a good day.

  10. #30
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    Default Irish - North & South

    A recollection from Ken Burns' PBS series on the Civil War is a conversation between two vets (one blue, one gray), which had the CSA vet concluding that the North won the war because it had more Irish. The North had its share, including Sheridan and Meagher, for example.

    The guy on the CSA side who interests me most was Patrick Ronayne Cleburne, a native of Cork, and very much a "fusion product" - as was Cork itself.

    For much of the Middle Ages, Cork city was an outpost of Old English culture in the midst of a predominantly hostile Gaelic countryside and cut off from the English government in the Pale around Dublin. Neighbouring Gaelic and Hiberno-Norman lords extorted "Black Rent" from the citizens in order to keep them from attacking the city. The main overlords of south western Ireland were the Fitzgerald Earl of Desmond dynasty, with the lordships of the MacCarthy and Barry families abutting directly onto Cork city. The Cork municipal government was dominated by about 12-15 merchant families, whose wealth came from overseas trade with continental Europe - in particular the export of wool and hides and the import of salt, iron and wine. Of these families, only the Ronayne family were of Gaelic Irish origin.
    The Cleburne Family was Anglo-Irish; that is, descendents of English who came to Ireland well after the Norman Invasion of Ireland in the 12th century. Pat Cleburne's mother was a Ronayne; so, he was 1/2 Anglo-Irish and 1/2 Gaelic Irish. Such mixing was not uncommon. The leading lights of the early 1600s in my MacCarthy Reagh sub-sept were more Fitzgerald than MacCarthy; with some Barry and Roche thrown in for added flavor.

    The divisions in the US, which existed before the Civil War and which were amplified during its course, were lessened (in some areas) by the compromises reached during and after Reconstruction. In the military, the Spanish-American War was something of a North-South unifying factor, where Confederate vets or their sons took an active role.

    When we look at situations where the "fusion process" has not really begun, such as that you specify:

    Melting pot we are...but in Afghanistan and Pakistan stand offish tribalism is a real problem, unable to learn how to cherish cultures while still learnign to live with and get along with others from different tribes, cultures, and backgrounds.
    we are confronted with a real, wicked problem - which your posts in other threads have helped to define.

    Regards,

    Mike

    PS: You and others might be interested in the The Wild Geese pages - although they emphasize the Southern (mostly Roman Catholic) Irish and have their own "received narrative".

    A recent article, Irish Dominate Medal of Honor List, is on-topic for this thread. This does not get into recipients of Irish (OK, Scots-Irish and Irish-Irish ) ancestry, but focuses on recipients born in Ireland (or Germany, etc.):

    The books list the 3,401 men who had received the Medal through 1994, presenting the information in several categories. A "birthplace" listing provides the state and town of birth for those medalists born in the United States and the country of birth for those born abroad. Thirty-three countries are listed as birthplaces of medal recipients. And I don't have to tell you that Ireland is the country with the largest number of medal winners — by far — with 258. Germany/Prussia is second with 128 recipients.

    Of the 258 immigrants who noted on their enlistment papers that they were born in Ireland, 134 also provided their county, town or townland of birth. Cork leads the honor list with 19 medalists, followed by Dublin and Tipperary with 11 each. Limerick has 10; Kerry eight; Galway seven; Antrim and Tyrone tied with six; Kilkenny and Sligo each have five.

    We Irish can proudly note that five of the 19 fighting men who won a second Medal of Honor were born in Ireland. They are Henry Hogan from County Clare; John Laverty from Tyrone; Dublin's John Cooper, whose name at birth was John Laver Mather; John King; and Patrick Mullen. Three double winners of the Medal were Irish-Americans: the indomitable Marine, Daniel Daly; the U.S. Navy's John McCloy; and the fighting Marine from Chicago, John Joseph Kelly.

  11. #31
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    I remembered this thread while reading this post at SWJ.

    If the Puritans would support a war that was declared by the authorities and the Scotch-Irish were willing to go to war if insulted or slighted, then what influence brought us the flower-power generation that didn't care about the war in Vietnam and did not honor the decision of the authorities to wage it?

    LBJ escalated the war, but the hippies, like, thought that was a total drag. None of them were down with the scene in Vietnam. When they got their draft cards, they like totally either split the country or they just fought the power and put the man in his place by tearing up or burning their draft cards. Puritans might have thought the war was groovy and the Scotch-Irish might have been down with crashing the set in Vietnam, but the flower children saw it as nothing but bad vibes, man.

    Oh man, I really got the munchies...
    Last edited by Schmedlap; 08-19-2009 at 06:08 AM. Reason: Just had to get my head straight...

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