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  1. #1
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Gaddis made the point that the administration, without publicly stating so, believed that the toppling of Saddam Hussien and a resulting shift towards democracy in Iraq might serve as the first domino in the region. Other democratic shifts in Iran and Saudi Arabia were plausible, and that was where the administration was moving with the "grand strategy" it developed in NSS-2002.

    Gaddis also made note of how much preemption factored into this strategy, in terms of countering threats. This makes sense to some degree, considering the shock of 9/11 just a few months before, but it leaves me thinking hard on whether this domino theory eventually hurt us or helped us.
    I don't see how a theory can help or hurt us... actions based on that theory would be another story, and in that event we'd have to assess the impact of the actions.

    The administration may not have publicly stated the "democratic domino theory" (I'm not going to check the archives to see), but this belief was stated loudly and often by many of the key supporters of the war, particularly those from the "neocon" side. Remember all the talk about "draining the swamp" in the Middle East? At times it started to sound like there was a row of huge crates in some warehouse in DC, each labeled "Democracy, functioning, one", ready to be "installed" like a spare tire or a light bulb. The assumption seemed to be that democracy is some sort of natural state, and that once the dictatorship was removed it would flourish of its own accord with a minor bit of judicious American cultivation, winning acclamation from all and setting a glowing example for the benighted peoples of the region.

    Of course it didn't quite work that way, as anyone with 4 functioning synapses would have expected from the start. Democracy cannot be installed, it evolves, and the evolution is often a prolonged process fraught with disorder and instability. When a dictator is overthrown by internal forces, there are by definition internal forces with at least enough coherence and support to overthrow a dictatorship. That doesn't assure a smooth transition to democracy, but it's a start. When a dictator is overthrown from the outside, where do you start? The institutions needed for democracy to function don't exist. If the outside party tries to create them, they are meddling. If they don't, there is chaos. Not a great place to be.

    Are we striving for stability in the Middle East, or democracy? They are not the same thing, and trying to force democratic transitions is hardly going to promote stability... quite the opposite.

    There's a lot of ranting about Saudi Arabia, and much of it overlooks the quite dramatic moves by the Saudis in the last 5-6 years, not toward democracy but toward providing a better life for the citizenry. The 90s were a pretty grim time in the Kingdom: the royals invested the proceeds of the first oil boom outside the country, for the most part, and when the glut and the price plunge came the royals were living in style while the populace felt the pinch - not a combination that promotes stability. The recent oil price surge saw a very different approach: the Saudis have spent enormous sums on domestic infrastructure, housing, health care, education, and job creation, and there has been a real influence on popular sentiment. Of course there are still fundamentalists who will take off and join the jihad, but they are not agitating for democracy, and democracy and liberalism are as likely to provoke radicalism as to alleviate it.

    The Gulf States are not democratic, but what business of ours is that? They are ordering their affairs in their own way, and whatever change takes place will happen in their way at their demand: I don't see any real evidence of widespread demand for democracy there. They aren't invading anybody, they aren't bothering anybody, why mess with them? We've more than enough problems elsewhere...

  2. #2
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Political handsprings to attract attention -- or deflect it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    I don't see how a theory can help or hurt us... actions based on that theory would be another story, and in that event we'd have to assess the impact of the actions.
    Political rhetoric. Not worth assessing.
    Are we striving for stability in the Middle East, or democracy? They are not the same thing, and trying to force democratic transitions is hardly going to promote stability... quite the opposite.
    In order, No; No; Only a few Ideological oddjobs even tried -- and that only briefly. The object was to send a message that attacks on American interest worldwide emanating from the ME would no longer be tolerated as Afghanistan was a message to the world not to attack American soil; two different things in two very different areas. Needed to do all that without disrupting world oil supply. The 'democracy bit was an afterthought in an attempt to replace the flawed WMD rationale.
    The Gulf States are not democratic, but what business of ours is that? ... We've more than enough problems elsewhere...
    True and you'll note that we've made no noise to them -- or the Saudis -- and very little to Pakistan about democracy...

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    True and you'll note that we've made no noise to them -- or the Saudis -- and very little to Pakistan about democracy...
    I agree that we've made no effort to force democracy on the Saudis, but we hear quite a bit of noise from outside Government suggesting that we should, though it's never quite clear how. I've even heard it said that Saudi Arabia is dependent on the US or even a US client state... again, I'm not sure how, certainly they aren't financially dependent on us (more the opposite). We've moved to protect the Saudis from potential external aggressors, but that was in defence of our own interests, and I see no hypocrisy there.

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    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Is the issue of democracy in the Kingdom, Pakistan, Iran, etc., a neocon platform? Has any of Obama's rhetoric stated a similar aim?

    I admit that I've been a bit removed from the issue previously, but I am curious now.

  5. #5
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I don't pay much attention to domestic politcs because it's so predictable

    and boring, so I'm not at all sure -- nor do I care - who wears what tags but my perception is that the Neocons were former liberals who became conservative and got, through Cheney, various positions in the last Administration. Perception is also that they made no noise about the Saudis but that those who opposed the previous administration and the Neocons were noisy about our failure to 'tackle' the Saudis or Pakistan and instead making the mistake of attacking Afghanistan -- until that worked, then they switched to the mistake of attacking Iraq. They are now quiet and will likely remain so until Iraq erupts than it will be someone else's fault.

    Everyone seems to have an idea about Iran...

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Everyone seems to have an idea about Iran...
    Does anyone have a good idea on what to do in Iran? I hope so, because I don't.

    The talk about Saudi Arabia came mainly from neocons outside the administration. Here's Michael Ledeen, in the National Review, Aug 2002:

    One can only hope that we turn the region into a cauldron, and faster, please. If ever there were a region that richly deserved being cauldronized, it is the Middle East today. If we wage the war effectively, we will bring down the terror regimes in Iraq, Iran, and Syria, and either bring down the Saudi monarchy or force it to abandon its global assembly line to indoctrinate young terrorists.
    Of course Ledeen was also one of the guys who thought the INC was a reliable source of information and that we should turn Iraq over to Chalabi...

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    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Default Iran

    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Does anyone have a good idea on what to do in Iran? I hope so, because I don't.
    Do nothing...They'll sort it out for themselves. That is a lesson that has been hard for us to learn.

    In some ways, dealing with Iran is like dealing with a teenage high school prom queen, in her own mind she is above the fray, and she has to figure things out on her own. The Persians are a great society, and they have a proud history. The worst thing we could do would be to tell them how to dress....

    v/r

    Mike

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    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for the corrrection

    I thought I recalled scanning the left leaning blogs over the past few years and seeing a great deal of froth about Saudi Arabia and Pakistan being ignored as friends of the Bush family while poor Afghanistan was attacked and we went to Iraq for the oil...

    Not of any great interest to me then or now so my recall could be off. Blog chatter and pundits don't know or say much of note. Yes, including me
    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Does anyone have a good idea on what to do in Iran? I hope so, because I don't.
    My vote would be to resume diplomatic relations -- or try; that would put them in a put up or shut up position. They want the Persian Empire back but know that's not likely; they want International respect but on their terms because they are the Persian Empire who rule from the Bosporus to Samarkand -- except they don't...

    They're conflicted and have delusions of grandeur and the leaders are really rather happy with their own little world, demanding things from the west, tweaking the nose of the great Satan. So my solution is, as it is for North Korea, play the game as we have been doing since 1979 and 1953 respectively. Certainly cheaper than most alternatives.

    But then, I'm not a nuke worrier, whether has the the capability or not I believe makes little real difference.

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