A career in security policy - advice needed

[jmm99]

from another new member (SheldrakeHolmes - I quake at the etymology).

With respect to American MA vs British PhD, I really can't comment (not an SME there). But, going along with SH's equivalence as a valid conclusion, a dual degree (JD/MA) might be a good 3.5 to 4 total academic years ticket. E.g., presently, I should think "Law and Modern Middle Eastern & North African Studies (JD/MA)" would be hot - just as in my vintage "Law and Russian & East European Studies (JD/MA)" would have been hot.

PS: GLS -

A good law firm will put you on reduced payroll from graduation until you pass the Bar exam, then raise your pay accordingly.

I believe that is often true; but the firm where I was trained (official history and Wiki) started me at $X and 1 Jan of second year went to $X+1/6X (several months before my NY bar admission). I expect that was an across the board firm policy, but the unwritten rule was not to ask about or compare salaries - so, I don't know about others.

[Rex Brynen]

You'll need a graduate degree, but beyond that how you slip into the policy world very much depends on networking, and not just the degree. Connections help, as does the ability of people to vouch that you're not just smart but sensible and policy-minded (three quite different attributes, and not always found together).

Moreover, it is also important to note that most folks spend many many years pushing other people's boulders up very large (policy) hills before you have any real influence.

The PhD route is not to be discounted. Depending on your specialization, there are some cases where the level of knowledge amassed as part of PhD studies will qualify you for positions ahead of others who have been pushing boulders up hills for years. In other cases, however, you would do better to do an MA plus work experience compared to the many additional years a PhD will take you.

Wherever you do your graduate work, do it somewhere where you have actual access to policy-makers, if possible.. DC, New York, London, etc. It makes a huge difference.

Use your thesis research--MA or PhD--as a way of getting to meet the people you want or need to know before you're out of graduate school. You would be surprised how many high level folks will take time to be interviewed by a graduate student, if it is handled right.

If you go the PhD route, you then have the option of a regular academic career with policy work on the side, and sabbaticals spent in policy shops. This this the way I went, and it combines the advantages of teaching (which can be enormous fun), a stable income, and the ability to pick and choose the policy work that I agree with and would like to be working on.

[Rearviewmirror]

Wow – I can’t believe how helpful and in depth everybody has been, talk about making a newbie feel welcome!

I think my main worry about doing a JD is that I’m not sure I have the required passion for studying the law that I think you need. I’ve got a few friends doing law, and I know that they’re absolutely absorbed in it and I’m not sure if I have that level of dedication or could sustain it for three years. I’d never really considered it as a career, and while I know the cash incentives are huge, I know that I’d be more passionate about teaching politics than practicing as an attorney. As a non-US person I’d also be a bit worried about taking out $120,000+ of loan to pay for a legal education – I’m not sure whether you can get full scholarships as an international student, or how stellar you would need to be. It honestly wasn’t a route into a policy career that I had considered until very recently which means I haven’t really had a chance to properly research it. I kind of feel that I’d be doing a JD as a means to an end and would enjoy an MA/PhD a lot more – but the pragmatist in me says that a few years of discomfort shouldn’t necessarily put me off if it gets me where I want to go.

As for my rather undefined goal of a US policy career – I have to apologise for that somewhat lacking description! I think I’m fairly open to anything, which is why that description was so nebulous. In an ideal world, something at the State Department, Pentagon or working as an advisor to a senator/governor (if they run for president all the better) would probably be what I want. I’ve always had a deep interest in military affairs, and although I know as a civilian I wouldn’t carry the same weight as an ex-service person I’d like to be in a job where I could cross the divide of military/government/academia. Then there’s the world of CoFR, Brookings, RAND etc. which I would also be very interested in. I suppose my ideal job would be something that had me based in DC, with occasional trips overseas to conflict zones to get a hands-on look at situations. Public service is where my heart lies, so I would like to be able to eventually feed some of what I’ve done back (i.e. teach or work in veterans affairs).

At the minute my main interest lies in counterinsurgency and counterterrorism, but I’m very aware of the changing demands on security policy, so I don’t want to lose sight of big-picture and end up so specialised that what I know is irrelevant in 20 years. I guess this is why a PhD appeals, as it would also give me time to get some solid language skills under my belt – and getting my very basic Arabic up to a good level would hopefully be possible and useful.

My main worry with a PhD is that it’s a huge investment of time (I’m already 25) before hitting the somewhat beleaguered job market. My main reason for wanting to do a PhD stateside is it covers a lot of ground and would also give me some good stats/quant training and be more attractive for future US academic employers. The idea of using grad research to meet people I’d like to work with is a great one.

I think what’s clear is that there is no single accepted route into what I’m interested in, and so doing what I’m passionate about would be best – and I have to say that’s unfortunately not a JD.

US citizenship is something I’m more than happy to go for, my main worry is getting some sort of job straight after postgrad to stay in the USA, rather than go back to the UK as soon as I graduate – I’m not sure if an MA or PhD would help more from that point of view.

Thanks a lot for all the advice so far!

[davidbfpo]

I'd consider - if only for US$ reasons, let alone INS - a short career in the UK. Something like VSO, British Council and other NGO's. There are IMHO very few Arabic speakers, so you maybe a premium applicant? I am mindful that Emma Sky was at the British Council before called to Iraq. Can you really afford three years at a law school? How about an internship inside the Beltway, as a taster?

davidbfpo

[George L. Singleton]

David's advice makes the most pragmatic sense, having read over everyone's inputs back to your original questions.

There are examples of one to any combination of programs anyone can bring up.

You need to focus on what you want to do and get started.

"Anything" is possible if you row your own boat positively, are intellectually honest, and work hard. No starting point is "too low"...those who are too good to do lesser level work are intellectual bums and never amount to much in my experience.

Again, I like David's advice. Listen to Dave, and maybe go see and talk with him. He has done well with Scotland Yard (now International side of same) is my perception.

[John T. Fishel]

US Law School used to be THE place to prepare for almost any kind of career. Now, the best prep for an international policy career is an MA in IR, Intl Studies, and/or Area Studies. In general, the best places to do such a degree is in DC or NYC but there are important exceptions based on access to internships and policymakers, and for area studies, the region. Other considerations are cost - for example, the DC schools use their MA programs as money makers and so, they are expensive and, generally, don't offer fellowships. A key issue here is to look for a "Professional Masters" program in contrast to a traditional "academic" masters. Thesis option should be available but it is not critical - there is always a substantial research requirement in good programs but it may not be a thesis.
Now, for the PhD. If you only wanted to teach, then moving to a direct PhD would be the way to go from the strongest academic program you could get into. There is also fellowship money there. But that doesn't appear to be your ambition.
For an academic career (in the US) the PhD is best taken in a discipline like Pol Sci or History, etc. For a policy wonk, however, any acredited, decent PhD will do. Interdisciplinary is not only fine but may well be more useful. However, getting the PhD is not something that is particularly useful for getting started in the policy field; it will be far more useful later on.
A last thought: policy wonks are in high demand as adjunct professors at many US schools (as long as they bring a PhD and/or real policy experience) which is a great way to keep a hand in the teaching business while doing a policy day job.

Good luck

JohnT

[George L. Singleton]

If you guys want to keep piling on advice to this young man in UK, I have a friend who concurrently did both his JD at Duke Law while doing in PhD in History/International Relations at Duke Graduate School. He got both degrees.

However, my friend's over his lifetime (he is nearing retirement now at age 58 or 59) career path has not made as good use of his sterling education as could have been the case.

Charting a direction that will logically be reinforced by one's advanced education is critically important.

[Schmedlap]

This is not advice for a career - as I would be the worst person to ask - but just some input on your perception of law school and a few other items.

I think my main worry about doing a JD is that I’m not sure I have the required passion for studying the law that I think you need.

I'm doing it while on vacation from the Army, just to force myself to do something productive. I'm not trying to steer you in either direction, but just wanted to disavow you of the notion that you need to be passionate about it. I and many of my peers are doing this because it seems like useful knowledge. Some are going into corporate America. Some want to be politicians. I am going back to the Army. Law school is not at the top of my priority list. There were a couple of days when I rolled out of bed late, realized that I did not have time to go to the gym before class... and opted to skip class and go to the gym. I'm still on the Dean's List. My study habits are better than when I was barely passing my classes as an undergrad, but not much better.

A more serious student could get a lot out of a joint degree program like JMM suggested. Just be aware that some are heavy on law and light on the MA. Choose wisely. There are some good ones, but it appalls me to see the curricula for some JD/MBA programs. Many are just a JD program plus a handful of core business classes (not even all of the core courses required for the MBA, let alone any electives). I can only assume that they are designed to create lawyers with some baseline of business knowledge, rather than vice versa.

As a non-US person I’d also be a bit worried about taking out $120,000+ of loan to pay for a legal education – I’m not sure whether you can get full scholarships as an international student, or how stellar you would need to be.

It depends upon where you live. If you want to go to school in DC (done it) then you might rack up $120K in loans because the cost of living is high and the schools are overpriced. A school in a smaller city - or in the suburbs of a large city - can lower that substantially. I am working on a graduate degree and a law degree. I am not doing a joint program - it is two separate programs. When I finish, I will be very surprised if I have accumulated more than $100K in loans. Cut that in half if I had only pursued law school. Also, lots of law students make surprisingly good money in the summer between their 2nd and 3rd year, which significantly offsets the cost of attendance (not something that I plan on doing).

At the minute my main interest lies in counterinsurgency and counterterrorism, but I’m very aware of the changing demands on security policy, so I don’t want to lose sight of big-picture and end up so specialised that what I know is irrelevant in 20 years.

Very wise. Ten years ago, the rage was "stability and support operations" - fancy term for "peacekeeping." Deployments to Kosovo rarely even make the news anymore. So much for that.

(I’m already 25)

That's kind of like someone looking for advice on their undergrad education saying, "I'm already 19." Seriously, don't give that another thought. I finished my Bachelors degree one month before my 25th birthday and didn't apply to grad school until I was 28 or law school until I was 30. I'm sure many others here had timelines that stretched much farther to the right. But look at us now!

[George L. Singleton]

Schmedlap, you are indeed a "closet brain!"