Snipers shape (and destroy) , and snipers and recon inform, Both are vital at the tactical level in cOIN,
Cheers
Mark
Snipers shape (and destroy) , and snipers and recon inform, Both are vital at the tactical level in cOIN,
Cheers
Mark
My beef/ concerns are basically as follows.
Precise effect, long range rifleman are good. No argument. Hitting folks with one shot at 6-900m is a capability I want in Companies and Platoons as part of my fire support.
I also want an STA capability, to call in fires and conduct observation - that may include operating a small UAV -. Do I want the same men doing the same job and the same time? My opinion is that I do not.
I want to simplify "Sniping" down to long range fire support, and build it as an individual skill based on some degree of natural ability.
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Sorry, old US TV commerical allegory...
Agree.Disagree.I also want an STA capability, to call in fires and conduct observation - that may include operating a small UAV -. Do I want the same men doing the same job and the same time? My opinion is that I do not.
All the UAVs and technical means in town cannot replace a good scout. Good scouts are born, not made and there aren't many of them about -- but a good one is worth his weight in Kiwi Fruit and can do things no gadget will ever do. Even a mediocre scout is better than not having one. We may get to the point in future where that is no longer true -- but at this time, it certainly is.
My belief is that the 'snipers / DM / whatever you want to call them' should not be in the Scout organization. While those shooters, like every other Infantryman are ISTAR sources and good ones, their primary aim is different (pun intended). "Shooters over here, you Scouts go out and play..."
Thus you have the shooters at Company level -- I'd go for Platoon level, one team each, Co Cdr to pull for some missions (or give him a team also). With maybe a couple of teams at Bn level; senior NCO to be the shooter trainer, working for the S3.
A Scout Section working for the S2. A platoon is probably more than are needed, 10-12 for a Bn should be adequate for most purposes. They should operate purely in a stealth, sneak and peek mode, lightly armed to preclude getting into firefights. Many in combat carried just a pistol for that reason.
Purely light Infantry should have just that Scout Section. Old style heavy or standard infantry and mechanized infantry, all with vehicles should have, in addition to the Scouts, a mounted Reconnaissance or Cavalry Platoon able to fight for information. Light Infantry should never be put in a situation where that's required (but they should be able to employ an OpCon or Attached Cavalry Troop).
My experience in doing jobs like that for a fair number of years is that most S2/S3 and Commanders do not really know how to employ their Scouts or Recce elements. Thus the Scouts Out contention that most dedicated recce units end up as minor combat units. That has been true but need not be as that result is directly attributable to my observation.
Said Scouts and Recce/Recon Platoons should not be used as a palace or commanders guard. Ever.
The problem in Afghanistan, and sometimes in Iraq from what I have heard, is not that snipers cannot do their job, or that the Battalion doesn't have enough people, but that they cannot effectively patrol based on restrictions placed by higher. These restrictions are that units must have a minimal manning to leave the wire, and often that manning is more than a scout team needs to be effective.
My thoughts are FOs have a role, recon soldiers have a role and snipers have a role in combat (both high intensity maneuver and counter-insurgency). If I were king of the Army, and I am not, I would designated marksman at the platoon level, sniper teams at the company level, a purely recon/scout platoon for the infantry battalion, then an additional sniper platoon at the battalion level. Basically, after months engaging an enemy at distances always greater than 500 meters, I don't think you can have too much long range marksmanship.
I wonder how much of this has its roots in the Army's early historical practice (prior to World War I, to put 'early' in context) of farming out a great deal of the "sneaking and peaking" side of recon to either private contractor-types or highly-specialized units (often of an ad-hoc nature)?
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Snipers should snipe (along with employ long-range indirect fires) AND conduct surveillance. They should not attempt reconnaissance as a primary mission set...at least not snipers organized within a battalion.Or is their surveillance role (still combined with sniping?), as apposed to their recon role, under the S2 still useful, as this part of the conclusion may suggest:
USMC sniper platoons used to be uniformly referred to as STA Plts, (or Surveillance, Target, Acquisition). In that role, they are great for our MEU capabilities. I think we quickly learned that bad habits can crop up when you try to employ a sniper team in a thoroughly hostile environment of Iraq, while utilizing TTP best suited to a semi-permissive environment found in a peacekeeping/enforcement or non-combatant evacuation type op.
Ken was right when he talked about:
Being able to fight for information is a key component of the doctrine...the "what you should do" aspect of doctrine. He is also right when he concurs with the contention that dedicated recce units typically become minor combat units. That's what I was getting at with the other thread that USMC LAR units are great at execution but could use work at planning. It was a light-hearted cut at the fact that we will always be glad to bite off more than we can realistically chew, while we are executing tasks that some might call reconnaissance, but we would refer to as a good old fashioned movement to contact, or vice versa.. It is bred into us, after all, despite the cavalry blood that also runs through our veins...having a 25mm cannon can be a intoxicating thing sometimes .Old style heavy or standard infantry and mechanized infantry, all with vehicles should have, in addition to the Scouts, a mounted Reconnaissance or Cavalry Platoon able to fight for information.
Successive OIF rotations have had an adverse impact on our core competencies though, since there has been a whole lotta commuting to work for several years, through the same terrain, villages, and road networks.
I've done both straight-legged infantry and light armored recon time, and though I haven't done specialized recon time the likes of Division or Force Recon (which are different beasts anyway), I don't think there is a need for any recon formation within a battalion. Companies can do it well enough alone, and are in fact supposed to do that as a functi0on of the types of combat patrols under RACES. Our doctrine says as much here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18404280/U...ling-MCWP-3113
If it is a frontage or depth issue, than call in a specialized asset that can accomplish what you need. Surprisingly enough, collecting the information isn't what I think requires the advanced training, it is the reporting piece that requires the extra effort, because you have to report what you know, and add the assessment in only at the end (and sometimes only when specifically asked).
That's a tall order for the coy commander who has been bred to do just about everything with an eye towards recommending a course of action as soon as he makes contact. If he is a GP infantry guy, he may think more in terms of defend, attack, or fix so someone else can attack, whereas I might think more in terms of finding the seam, or bypassing. based on my bypass criteria.
Interesting thread though kiwigrunt. It'll be interesting to se how it pans out.
It seems that snipers have usually been employed most effectively at battalion level. Having said that, company commanders could most likely use a true sniping capability, not just "designated marksmen."
I've mentioned before that I like the idea of a "sharpshooter type" rifle squad led by a senior staff sergeant in a rifle company's weapons platoon. The squad should be big enough to attach a team (or two?) of DMs out to each rifle platoon and have a team left under the company commander's control. Platoon leaders could further attach the DMs directly to a squad if necessary for operations but I don't like the idea of DMs living with a rifle squad full time even if it's been done successfully before.
Use the arms room concept: the teams attached to rifle platoons would likely operate with semi-auto rifles with the team(s) employed by the company commander using bolt rifles or a .50 Barrett, mission dependant.
This squad should also be a natural for things like LP/OP duty or other types of screening.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
Jon:
It's not that the Rifle Cos can't / aren't patrolling and plunking in beaucoup Intel, the reasons for a Bn Scout section are to avoid having to task a Co to provide a patrol that would take people away from their Sector or Zone for those EEI that the S2 identifies that do not fall clearly in the areas assigned to a Co; to provide some Intel trained eyes that can notice things that the Co patrols might miss due to personnel turbulence, casualties/replacements, etc.; Provide people that can give a good full bore report -- a trained observer and reporter is better than a good one. It allows for special training in forensic examination, document review, Rifle Co Recon Patrol debriefs and other good stuff without having to cull from the Cos some who might have had such training -- I can go on for another hour.
However, I do acknowledge that they would have / have had limited use in most Bn AOs in Iraq. They probably would have little employment in Afghanistan in current reality but that job is tailor made for such a section -- provided the Theater Commander had the testicular fortitude required to let 'em be sent out.
In a mid intensity or high intensity situation, they'll earn their money many times over. Partly due to Rifle Co casualties and personnel turnover.
Not a frontage issue in all cases but it can be -- it is a depth issue in the sense that the Rifle Co Recon (Combat patrols are a separate animal and they belong to the Cos and not to the Scout sect) Patrols should normally go out no more than 10-15 km, max, generally less -- and METT-TC dependent -- so they run about 4 hours out and 4 back, max (with 4-6 total being better and with no overnight stays) the Scout Sec, OTOH should be prepared for three to five day patrols in bad guy territory or up to about 30 km out. Not everyone grooves on that-- or can do it. Div Recon should be used for the stuff from 30-100km out while Force Recon can do the strategic stuff beyond 100km.
What usually happens in peacetime is the Sections get cut, the Rifle Cos get tabbed to do things they should not and Div gets called in to do what should be the Bn's job while force is busy with other things (That from a former Div [war] and Force [peace] guy ).
Rifleman:
You said:Is that because that's where they've been placed most of the time due to fear of unsupervised NCOs shooting the wrong people or because that's really the most effective location?:It seems that snipers have usually been employed most effectively at battalion level..."I'd think so -- not least because in Korea there were snipers in most rifle companies in the 1st Mar Div -- some had 'em down to Platoon level. Some units in Viet Nam did the same thing, most didn't bother but the decision was generally based on the terrain and vegetation the unit operated in -- not much call for 5-800m shots in triple canopy..."Having said that, company commanders could most likely use a true sniping capability, not just "designated marksmen."
What's your objection to the DM being / staying part of the squad?
Why would you go with a .50 at Co level? For that matter, why go with a bolt gun in the Co?
For some of the same reasons that crew served weapons are usually kept seperate for training and garrison and attached out as needed. It seems to me that snipers and DMs would better trained under the supervision of a senior staff sergeant with sniper experience instead of a rifle squad leader who might not have any.
It wouldn't have to be a .50 but wouldn't it be benificial for the company commander have some kind of heavy rifle available?Why would you go with a .50 at Co level?
Why, because you're just not a real sniper without a bolt rifle. Think about it. With a semi-auto you actually have to wait for gas to cycle the action before firing again, while a good man with a bolt rifle can.....For that matter, why go with a bolt gun in the Co?
Seriously though, I was just thinking that a semi-auto isn't as necessary once you're removed some distance from the firefight and perhaps operating in something closer to a true sniper role instead of a DM role, plus the M24 is still in the system and will be for some time, won't it?
But I'd be less concerned about what rifle is used and more concerned about grouping all snipers/DMs into a single squad for training and admin. MGs do it that way, mortars do it that way, anti-armor does it that way, etc. Sometimes those weapons mass and sometimes they're attached out. Seems to me that concept sould also work well with snipers/DMs at rifle company level, that's all.
As always, Sergeant Major, I look forward to your rebuttal!
Last edited by Rifleman; 08-20-2009 at 07:52 AM.
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
Totally agree with your logic but not the solution. First, a key distinction is just that 'crew served' -- keep the 'crew' together in both garrison and combat. Recall also that all the crew served weapons we have are best employed in multiples (yes, even the Javelin) so keeping the crew together for cohesion makes sense, training them altogether makes sense. Employing then together makes sense.
The designated marksman, to be most effective in combat should part of a crew involved in the fire and maneuver business. That crew is the squad so that's where he or she should be. The training issue in garrison is easily solved by scheduling the DM sustainment training so that they all get together under the senior Co (or Bn) DM / Sniper. In my view, you'd have two Sniper * tms at Co, a DM in every squad and the senior Sniper becomes the Co DM trainer. if there's also a Bn Sniper Tm or section, the leader becomes the Bn Master Shooter and oversees training.
Let me caveat all that by saying that's a here and now answer to your point. In a dream world, all the Squad Leaders (and thus the PSG) would have been DMs and would thus know how important the job was and would not neglect the training which they could conduct themselves. I'll add that 'dream' isn't at all hard to achieve -- all it would take is will power and an acknowledgment by the Army (and Congress) that not everyone who sticks around long enough and keeps his nose clean needs to be a Squad Leader...Yeah but I'd go with a .338 or similar on weight aspects.It wouldn't have to be a .50 but wouldn't it be benificial for the company commander have some kind of heavy rifle available?Yeah, yeah -- lot of tha going around...Why, because you're just not a real sniper without a bolt rifle. Think about it. With a semi-auto you actually have to wait for gas to cycle the action before firing again, while a good man with a bolt rifle can.....Valid on all counts. My though is that to preclude identification by the other guys shooters and on logistic grounds, all the weapons in the Co that can possibly be similar should be, the more they all look and operate alike, the easier your training and the better to conphooze the evil enema. not a big thing, though...Seriously though, I was just thinking that a semi-auto isn't as necessary once you're removed some distance from the firefight and perhaps operating in something closer to a true sniper role instead of a DM role, plus the M24 is still in the system and will be for some time, won't it?here's my re -- the buttal was up above...
But I'd be less concerned about what rifle is used and more concerned about grouping all snipers/DMs into a single squad for training and admin...Seems to me that concept sould also work well with snipers/DMs at rifle company level, that's all...As always, Sergeant Major, I look forward to your rebuttal!
I hear you but I think that's a peace and not a warfighting approach -- it also neglects the fact that 'attachments' in combat do not work well, a guy cannot work for two masters and that the DM is an individual with an individual weapon as opposed to a crew with a crew served weapon. Combat cohesion is critical...
A lot of our poor structuring is a result of trying to make life easy in garrison and in peace time; unfortunately, while it works well there it often is a minor problem -- sometimes a major one -- in combat where there are so many bigger problems that the minor ones are overlooked. Not a good way to do it, IMO.
Last edited by Ken White; 08-20-2009 at 07:17 PM.
That's what my experience thought me. Both recon & sniping are capabilities which, in a perfect army, any infantry company should have. However, I have found it very difficult to maintain these capabilities within the company level, due to the small number of men concerned and the "force of momentum", which tends to constrain the company CO to his more immediate and generalized tasks.
Moreover, the battalion CO should not, IMO "sub-let" this crucial element to his company commanders.
Therefore - a battalion recon platoon and sniper section.
"Nowadays people seem to imagine that impartiality means readiness to treat lies and truth the same, readiness to hold white as bad as black and black as good as white. I, on the contrary, believe that without integrity a man much better not approach a problem at all." Orde Charles Wingate, 1938
I'm not sure you do!
Concur. There are good "stalkers / scouts." Yes, if you can find them and train them, then they are a positive asset.All the UAVs and technical means in town cannot replace a good scout. Good scouts are born, not made and there aren't many of them about -- but a good one is worth his weight in Kiwi Fruit and can do things no gadget will ever do. Even a mediocre scout is better than not having one. We may get to the point in future where that is no longer true -- but at this time, it certainly is.
I am not suggesting we replace that capability with UAVs, but some of the new tactical UAV capabilities are extremely impressive, and also combat proven. My point being, let's not confuse, Sniping/Scouting and STA as all being the same thing. They are not.
Yes I agree. Different jobs, so different people doing different things, but that becomes very hard to sustain, when you have "sniper training" that emphasises an STA type task, and the reason it does comes purely from WW1, and trench warfare.My belief is that the 'snipers / DM / whatever you want to call them' should not be in the Scout organization. While those shooters, like every other Infantryman are ISTAR sources and good ones, their primary aim is different (pun intended). "Shooters over here, you Scouts go out and play..."
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
I see -- and I agree...I also agree with you on the 'Sniper' problem but I'm lazy and use the term as shorthand for 'An individual with an effective long range weapon and sighting appendage designated to fire at high value targets, materiel and personnel with a strong probability of success who is part of the fire support effort.' (thus my Asterisk in the post above to Rifleman when I meant to clarify that I was using the inappropriate term due to intrinsic sedentariosis, an affliction with which I have long suffered. )...."sniper training" that emphasises an STA type task, and the reason it does comes purely from WW1, and trench warfare.
I am working on an acronym...
Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)
All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
(Arthur Schopenhauer)
ONWARD
Wilf, could you elaborate your this thought in this thread context.
PBID essentially suggests that you train, organize, and operate light infantry in a way that best utilizes their inherent strengths. In practice, this means that you train infantry to accomplish two basic tasks, these being a reconnaissance patrol and an observation post. These two core skills are built on a high level of individually developed field-craft skills. In simplistic but easily understood terms, you train Soldiers as snipers and then train them as a recce platoon.http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1Why? Surely this is completely against the teaching that only the brightest, best, and most experienced of infantry unit Soldiers become snipers and members of the recce platoons.
Ken White porposed his definition of sniper:
I think that this is more appropriate to define designated marksman. I'd like to borrow sniper's definition from Mark Spicer's book "Illustrated manual of sniper skills."An individual with an effective long range weapon and sighting appendage designated to fire at high value targets, materiel and personnel with a strong probability of success who is part of the fire support effort.
Page 18,Sniping is the employment of individual shooters from concealed positions with no warning, from any distance, depending on the range of the weapon. This is not to say, of course , that to maximize the chances of sniper surviving to fight again, the longer the distance between him and the victim the better. Conversely, if the sniper is able to conceal himself and endage successfully at close range, then that is also sniping.
http://books.google.com/books?id=B5u...age&q=&f=false
Last Gun's and Ammo "Book of AR-15" has short article "The Art of the SDM". If understand correctly (with my limited knowledge of English) Army is outsourceing training from civilian shooting community.
Ken White's sniper:
Kaur:An individual with an effective long range weapon and sighting appendage designated to fire at high value targets, materiel and personnel with a strong probability of success who is part of the fire support effort.
Mark Spicer's sniper through Kaur:I think that this is more appropriate to define designated marksman. I'd like to borrow sniper's definition from Mark Spicer's book "Illustrated manual of sniper skills."
Thanks Kaur.Sniping is the employment of individual shooters from concealed positions with no warning, from any distance, depending on the range of the weapon. This is not to say, of course, that to maximize the chances of sniper surviving to fight again, the longer the distance between him and the victim the better. Conversely, if the sniper is able to conceal himself and engage successfully at close range, then that is also sniping.
You illustrated one area where I still can't see snipers being replaced by DMs. I think the issue is in Ken’s last part of his definition: "who is part of the fire support effort".
For as far as the snipers are indeed an integral part of the overall fire support effort, then I can probably agree that a DM is just as useful, if not more so. The strength of a sniper is in the "individual" aspect of his capabilities, supported by his much advanced field-craft skills as compared to average rifleman. A DM is an average rifleman with exceptional shooting skills (I think).
Now I know what Wilf is going to say here, regarding witchcraft etc, and I don’t disagree for as far as the myth-status and such almost celebrity-level exaggerations. But I still can see a potential use for the combination of these exceptional shooting skills and exceptional field craft skills, resulting in the ‘sniper’.
And here lies of course the attraction/risk of having snipers used for the scouting/recon role, which is probably understandable but not necessarily advisable. Conversely that doesn’t mean that there should be a law against it either, IMO.
I think the same level of justification for specialized scouts as compared to recon by line-platoons was well made here:
Ken’s Post 27 of the current parallel thread.
Bringing that concept back to snipers, I can still see a justification for a number of snipers, probably at battalion level. At lower levels, probably concentrate on DMs.Reconnaissance is a necessary and vital function. It IS everyone's job as Wilf says -- it also requires a few, not many, specialists that can do it stealthily, quickly, thoroughly and tell you accurately what's out there without fighting for it. They need to be a bit better than the average bear.
Last edited by Kiwigrunt; 08-20-2009 at 09:17 PM.
Nothing that results in human progress is achieved with unanimous consent. (Christopher Columbus)
All great truth passes through three stages: first it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
(Arthur Schopenhauer)
ONWARD
You're right on that being the Designated Marksman (DM). I tend to agree with Wilf that the term Sniper is subject to misuse. For example, Spicer's definition you supplied:shows the problem; in the first place 'no warning' is not necessarily always correct or necessary and the distance or range is subject to a great many tactical and terrain variables. In the second case the shooter is doing the same thing any DM does. So While I made my definition mostly as a joke, I think it might really be more accurate than the 'Expert's' serious attempt at a definition."Sniping is the employment of individual shooters from concealed positions with no warning, from any distance, depending on the range of the weapon. This is not to say, of course, that to maximize the chances of sniper surviving to fight again, the longer the distance between him and the victim the better (1). Conversely, if the sniper is able to conceal himself and engage successfully at close range, then that is also sniping (2)." (Notes added / kw)
Wilf's point that the term 'Sniper' suffers from the baggage of the trenches here in the west and from a lot myths worldwide is correct I think.
"Sniper' has been and is misused, Designated Marksman is unwieldy and Sharpshooter has bad connotations. I was also joking about thinking up a new acronym but maybe I really ought to do that. How about 'Better than Average Destroyer And Sharp Shooter' (BADASS). Hmm. Maybe not. Needs more work. I'll see what I can come up with...
On the civilian assist in small arms training -- true. There are a lot of sport shooters here that concentrate on long distance shooting. That kind of shooting got to be a lost skill in the Army with the departure of the M1 so to build the skill for a lot of people rapidly, the Shooting Clubs pitched in to help -- as they have in every war we've been in since the 19th Century.
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