Dealing with Haditha

[Ken White]

This is not un-biased forum and opinions like yours, and true and honest criticism (even when supported with news or official reports) have no merit when US military is on line... Sooner you get that longer you will stay. But, judging by some reactions on your first post, you are in cross lines already.

Good luck.

is unbiased, none, my observation in a month or so here is that you can criticize the military to your hearts content as long as you don't do it in a way that is designed to annoy people and as long as you're reasonable and factual.

Only when the 'in your face' and confrontational style is used do some object. They also object when statements are made with no references or backup to support the comment. As they should. People who want to make political comments can go to political blogs, there are hundreds of them out there, most filled with foolishness.

[Sarajevo071]

Un-biased -- unfortunately not, though we try. I know Sarajevo071 has the scars from bearing with us. Thanks.

Understand and agree with you... This place, and I will always admit that, thanks to the brain power, experience and professionalism it's better then 99% places out there. Period.

Only when the 'in your face' and confrontational style is used do some object. They also object when statements are made with no references or backup to support the comment. As they should.

Just to be fair, there was times when I posted references and sources/links for reasons for my opinions and comments but they was ignored and pushed aside due to the blind defending of one sides... Saying that, one need also to admit that in the war there is two sides to the truth and passions run deep and very high on both of them.

War is bloody, messy thing.

[SWJED]

Frontline’s Haditha: “Rules of Engagement”

Jules Crittenden (Forward Movement) has the advance scoop on PBS Frontline’s Haditha: “Rules of Engagement”

Airing on PBS Tuesday, Feb. 19. Check your local listings and make a note. Preview trailers here.

I just finished watching a review copy. If you want to know the basics on this political football, see principal participants and witnesses interviewed — Marines, Haditha survivors, reporters and lawyers — and see extensive private and military video footage and stills of 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3/1 Marines in Haditha before, during and after the Nov. 19, 2005 incident, you’ll want to watch this.

Like most Frontline treatments, it is well-documented and painstakingly fair. To the extent it can be in the space of an hour, it is the story of the unit and the military, media and political history of the incident. The high points of the investigation, prosecution and defense are woven through...

[bismark17]

I thought it made Murtha and the Prosecution look like total jackasses. I really feel for those kids being placed in that position. Regardless of how much training you do sometimes when you go "full tilt boogie" stuff happens. Mistakes were made and I'm sure they will have to deal with them for the rest of their lives. There is a big difference from intentional acts to things that occur in the heat of the moment. Major kudos to that forensics investigator who appears to have done a great job at investigating the objective facts and not just creating more ammunition for their respective paymaster.

That show should be required viewing for L.E. and ground pounders after they have some realistic training and can appreciate the feelings of tunnel vision, auditory exclusion and all the rest of that reptilian mind stuff. The problem in our polite, zero defect, society is that too many people not only don't have an understanding of history or the military but have never even been in a fight and thus can't even appreciate what happens in a fight for your life event.

[Ken White]

... The problem in our polite, zero defect, society is that too many people not only don't have an understanding of history or the military but have never even been in a fight and thus can't even appreciate what happens in a fight for your life event.

Or even one not for ones life but just where someone might get rough...

[Rank amateur]

It seems to me that we insist its safe to eat soup with a knife, until innocent people get cut by the knife.

If we were all honest enough to say, "we're going to blow up a lot stuff, a lot of people will be killed, some of them will be innocent, but here's why we think it's worth it..." civilians, politicians and soldiers would be on the same page and know what to expect.

Having said that, I only saw Wuterich's 60 Minutes interview - and don't know many of the details that must've been in the frontline piece - but it appeared to me that Wuterich was using conventional ROE in a COIN environment. He wasn't properly prepared. I felt sorry for him and don't see how anyone could hold him criminally responsible.

[Boondoggle]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2009...c50074c7e7.txt

If he drops the charges against LtCol Chessani, that leaves only the case against SSgt Wuterich to be tried, if that.

Personally, I doubt there will ever be a trial on the merits at this point and the USMC would probably like this whole thing to fade away.

[IntelTrooper]

http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2009...c50074c7e7.txt

If he drops the charges against LtCol Chessani, that leaves only the case against SSgt Wuterich to be tried, if that.

Personally, I doubt there will ever be a trial on the merits at this point and the USMC would probably like this whole thing to fade away.

I haven't been following this story very much... but if Chessani says that he kept his superiors informed wouldn't the logical thing to do be to investigate them? Or is that part of the "unlawful command influence"? And if it was unlawful, why aren't they facing charges?

[jmm99]

between this thread and the thread on the autistic Marine is COL John Ewers.

COL Ewers, as the investigater of the Haditha cases and also as adviser to GEN Mattis, is mentioned in the NY Times article as a key figure:

The unlawful command influence ruling determined that a legal adviser for the prosecution should not have had any role in the case. The adviser, Col. John Ewers, had investigated each of the accused Marines and was listed as a prosecution witness.

His presence at meetings with a general overseeing the Haditha cases and prosecutors created an unacceptable perception of unlawful command influence, the military judge concluded.

I'd probably use the term "undue command influence", since "unlawful" gives something of a criminal flavor - especially where there was no finding of actual command influence, but rather "an unacceptable perception" of it.

COL Ewers then went on to become a military judge and ruled against the autistic Marine - see San Diego article:

Fry's attorney, Michael Studenka of Newport Beach, had urged Judge Col. John Ewers not to put Fry on trial.
....
Ewers did not see it that way.

“The defense motion to dismiss for lack of ... jurisdiction was denied,” Lt. Col. Sean Gibson, a Marine spokesman at Camp Pendleton, wrote in a statement to The San Diego Union-Tribune.

What is ironic is lawyer Fidell's statement in the autistic Marine case:

“This strikes me as a stupid case to prosecute,” said Fidell, a senior partner in the law firm Feldesman Tucker Leifer Fidell. “I think the chief of military justice should intervene to have the case dropped.

Might I suggest that, in the Haditha cases, it would have been better if everyone had simply allowed the process to run its course without interference - and the same in the San Siego case.

[IntelTrooper]

Might I suggest that, in the Haditha cases, it would have been better if everyone had simply allowed the process to run its course without interference - and the same in the San Siego case.

Sounds like Colonel Ewers is out of control.

[jmm99]

from IT
Sounds like Colonel Ewers is out of control.

What is your evidence ?

[davidbfpo]

I thought that the Forum had a thread on the Haditha murders in November 2005, a search says not, but this "long read" is worth reading.

Link:https://taskandpurpose.com/true-stor...r-crimes-case/