Reply With Quote... my post here before you continue at SWC.Originally Posted by GreenBird
I am not sure if your e-mail to The Partisan (aka Syrian Sister) will get through as she was banned.
I don't think this qualifies as a lack of accountability. Several issues have thrown the case in doubt, although I think it is still very likely that Sgt. Frank Wuterich and some of the squad in question will not see their charges dismissed. There was the UAV video (just declassified) of insurgents leaving the scene right at the time the shooting started, and continued questioning of witness statement discrepencies.
My response to those who want to hang these guys from the nearest tree and those who don't want them tried for anything is the same. Wait and see; have faith in the military justice system. A general is not just going to dismiss charges if the charge is legitimate, especially not in a case as major as this with a general like Mattis.
Matt
"Give a good leader very little and he will succeed. Give a mediocrity a great deal and he will fail." - General George C. Marshall
See...
... my post here before you continue at SWC.
I am not sure if your e-mail to The Partisan (aka Syrian Sister) will get through as she was banned.
Last edited by SWJED; 09-06-2007 at 03:44 AM.
You gotta admit that letter is a work of art.
Semper Fi
Sam Liles
Selil Blog
Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.
This is not un-biased forum and opinions like yours, and true and honest criticism (even when supported with news or official reports) have no merit when US military is on line... Sooner you get that longer you will stay. But, judging by some reactions on your first post, you are in cross lines already.
Good luck.
Hi,
First, just to be clear, I am not one of those "who want to hang these guys from the nearest tree" but one who would like to see UNIVERSAL rules on crimes, war crimes, murder on every single individual... Being treated same, equal, it's basic human right and pillar of democracy. Right? Or I miss that class in school!?
Anyways, "wait and see" policy is great also when you apply that on everyone and not when one side do something wrong you go and accuse and punish them right away but when other side do that (one close to your heart) rules are completely different. Or some time there is not even "wait and see". Crimes are ignored and push under the carpet. They are bunch of jihadi towel heads anyways, right?
I know, I will get the heat soon I post this but for me murder is murder. Simple.
Like ACLU said, there are many crimes committed by U.S. Soldiers against civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan that "detail a troubling pattern of troops failing to understand and follow the rules that govern interrogations and deadly actions." Troops and their officers being let go, not punished for murders or rapes putting bad stain on all US military and what they trying to do and for what they stand for. And that is bad and wrong message to everyone else.
But, that's just my humble (non-american) opinion.
Last edited by Sarajevo071; 09-06-2007 at 06:18 AM.
MattC86, I think the defense argument regarding the UAV footage is not that insurgents were "leaving the scene" but rather that the Marines were engaged in several firefights that day and CAS was used to destroy several houses without positive ID of all people within the house --- and thus Marines clearing houses without positively ID'ing their targets was within the ROE.
The UAV footage has always been there and is in fact detailed in the Harpers writeup of the incident by William Langiewiesche, where he makes much the same point.The video appears to show that, throughout that day, Marines engaged in fierce firefights and called in air strikes to level buildings -- often with no definitive idea of who was inside.
That could buttress defense arguments that Marines clearing buildings on the ground with guns and grenades were just following rules of engagement.
"The defense can say, 'Hey, look, you had to do this later in the day, what's the difference between what happened later in the day and what our guys did earlier in the day?' " asked retired Marine Lt. Col. Gary Solis, a former prosecutor and military judge who teaches law at Georgetown University and West Point.
... The men in the car on the palm-grove trail were in no particular hurry. They stopped beside other cars on the trail, presumably to coordinate future attacks. Eventually they came to River Road, not far south of Route Chestnut, where they parked the car and entered two houses. McConnell called the houses "safe houses," perhaps because the men calmly entered them. There was little doubt that all seven men were insurgents, but it was impossible to tell who else was in the houses, and specifically whether families were sheltering inside. Force-protection standards precluded the possibility of checking, and since the rules of engagement sanctioned collateral casualties with the enemy so near, a flight of Cobra helicopters arrived and fired two AGM-114 Hellfire missiles, one into each house, to soften things up. Kilo Company Marines then rushed forward to clear the rooms as required. The first house was empty, but as they approached the second one they were greeted by small-arms fire and grenades. The Marines pulled back—way back—and called in an AV-8B Harrier jet to drop a guided 500-pound GBU-12 Paveway bomb. The bomb crashed into the house with impressive precision, but did not explode.
At this point the drone saw two MAMs leave through the back door and run into a little palm-grove patch to hide. The Marines brought the Harrier around to pink-mist these guys with a second 500-pound bomb—this one guided into the patch—but it, too, turned out to be a dud. Undaunted, the troops switched weapons and hit the patch with a $180,000 air-launched AGM-65 Maverick missile. The strike resulted in one E.K.I.A. The surviving MAM egressed the patch and ingressed the house again. It was ridiculous. The Harrier came back around and dropped a third 500-pound bomb directly through the roof, blowing the whole house and everyone in it to bloody shreds.
This was McConnell's reality as Haditha settled down for the night. He gave a talk at Sparta Base, in which for once he did not overstretch. He said: Men, we've had a tough day, it's sad about Terrazas, but everyone functioned pretty well, so good job and keep at it. He did not mention—and apparently did not much think about—all the noncombatants who had died. Look, this was Iraq. The clearing operations on Route Chestnut did not stand out as being significantly different from the other main act of the day, the use of missiles and bombs against a house that may well have contained a family. God knows there were enough body parts now scattered through the ruins. Killing face-to-face with an M16 allows you at least some chance to desist from slaughtering women and children, which is not true once a bomb is called down on a house ...
No, not un-biased. Not parochial, either.
Un-biased -- unfortunately not, though we try. I know Sarajevo071 has the scars from bearing with us. Thanks.
We are a bit better at accepting opinions and true and honest criticism when they are supported with news, references, or at least a little thoughtful individual analysis. We aren't much good at critical drive-bys with no substance, even less so when they're a first post.
There's no reason why we shouldn't be equally intolerant of pro-US drive-bys of the same ilk. I guess that's the bias coming through. We do tend to ignore those rather than pounce on them, but they are no more valued or desired. Oh well. Like I said, we're not perfect.
Feel free to dissent wildly, in thoughtful and substantive posts. We need to accept that. And if/when you do, I hope you will find me, SWJED, and all the moderators fully on your side. We must get there.
There is an extensive discussion of Haditha, ROE, and related matters in this thread: Dealing With Haditha
Newer members please read through this before jumping in, unaware, into the current discussion.
Heh. Aside from the fact that no forum
is unbiased, none, my observation in a month or so here is that you can criticize the military to your hearts content as long as you don't do it in a way that is designed to annoy people and as long as you're reasonable and factual.
Only when the 'in your face' and confrontational style is used do some object. They also object when statements are made with no references or backup to support the comment. As they should. People who want to make political comments can go to political blogs, there are hundreds of them out there, most filled with foolishness.
Understand and agree with you... This place, and I will always admit that, thanks to the brain power, experience and professionalism it's better then 99% places out there. Period.
Just to be fair, there was times when I posted references and sources/links for reasons for my opinions and comments but they was ignored and pushed aside due to the blind defending of one sides... Saying that, one need also to admit that in the war there is two sides to the truth and passions run deep and very high on both of them.
War is bloody, messy thing.
What's the other 1%
Example is better than precept.
True...
Totally true in fact -- but, like the Marines say, somebody better know how.
I think that know how is terribly important and that to those who go, the politics are not terribly relevant. The time for all that is BEFORE commitment, a fact a great many seem to lose sight of...
This place. And couple others too.What's the other 1%
An excellent segway into the old Changing of Perception thread that, unknowingly, Sarajevo071 actually made me think of in the first place about 9 months ago...
Example is better than precept.
Thank you.
I saw that tread, and I was reading it. But decided not to comment since I felt I was not welcomed (even that I felt strongly about some things and find some other things being wrong).
I was always with opinion that one need to understand and respect "other side" to understand why's and how's, to know the truth no matter how hard is it for "his side". Only then we can more forward and solve things.
Wars are not run forever and on the end, we do need each other.
Many know "how to", that's not an issue. To pull the trigger is easy. But, to pull at right person/target and at right time and place seams to be problem to many out there.
The way I see it, threads like that are made for those like you. No disrespect intended in any way, but I'm at the point where I think that if I can convince you of something, I can convince the indigenous populace too.Thank you.
I saw that tread, and I was reading it. But decided not to comment since I felt I was not welcomed (even that I felt strongly about some things and find some other things being wrong).
I was always with opinion that one need to understand and respect "other side" to understand why's and how's, to know the truth no matter how hard is it for "his side". Only then we can more forward and solve things.
Wars are not run forever and on the end, we do need each other.
Example is better than precept.
Nothing new in that
Been a problem ever since there have been triggers. Before that, it was swords, before that spears...
Good leaders and good training don't let that happen and never have. Unfortunately, the human genome does not produce invariably good leaders and democraices don't do well at training in peacetime; to do it right causes casualties and the Mothers get upset.
It is, thankfully, far less a problem now than it was even 30 years ago. I suspect it will continue to be a problem and we just have to note when it occurs, fix that specific problem as best we can and keep working on the generic problem. Which most people are doing...
Have you convinced him of anything?
We occasionally engage in mutual understanding...
Example is better than precept.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks