French & US COIN and Galula (merged thread)

[Ken White]

... he fit into the supporting Vietnam loss-narrative that had Creighton Abrams as the guy who got it right because he understood the so-called primacy in any Coin op of the “people” and Westmoreland as the conventional minded, big battle fool (Andre Birtle’s excellent new book on the history of Coin in the American Army goes a long way at debunking this myth) because he purportedly only wanted to go out and kill people and blow things up...

Could you please provide the title of Birtle's book; cannot find it or him through Google. I'll be interested in reading it.

Can't speak for anything in Viet Nam after my last trip in '68 but from 62 until the fall of 68 with two short trips and two tours and fairly diverse service in all four corps areas, I'll be interested to see if he properly gives credit to the Division and Brigade commanders like Harry Kinnard and Willard Pearson who did what needed to be done in spite of MACV and to Bruce Palmer, the DepComUSMACV who like Westmoreland, understood the problem.

The difference between Palmer the Calvaryman with Pacific experience and his boss, the Artillerist turned Infantryman with European experience was that Palmer also knew what needed to be done while Westmoreland did not...

...Writers like L. Sorely in the 90s created the notion that the Vietnam war was winnable if we had just allowed General Abrams to continue his “population centric” approach. But alas those pesky politicians, the will-lacking American people, and the evil MSM pulled the rug out from under him, or so the story goes.

I have read Sorley's book and while not in country during the period, the narrative is, IMO, totally credible. Yes, that's the way the story goes -- and there's a great deal of validity in it. I suggest the the problem was not will-lacking people or the evil MSM (they aren't evil, just stupid) but the politicians did have an effect -- and there is no question that the US Army bears the brunt of the responsibility for failure in Viet Nam due to inept political guidance (outside the Army's control) and inept tactics from 1962 until 1968 (the Army's purview).

I have argued in other places that the American Army’s current operational doctrine is no longer FM 3-0 but instead FM 3-24 counterinsurgency. In fact one could prove this by simply taking Galula’s book, removing the historical and contextual references by bringing them up to date, give this document to a LT or SFC just returned from Iraq or Afghanistan, ask them what they had just read, and you would get an answer like, “Oh I just read a summary of FM 3-24.” Ask these same individuals to summarize the Army’s new overall operational doctrine or FM 3-0 and they could not even come close...

I suggest that since what the troops are now doing has a significant impact on what they think and read, that the fact they spew COIN is to be expected -- and that it is no big thing; they can adapt and will if they have to. As Schmedlap pointed out elsewhere, regardless of bad command decisions, the troops on the ground figured it out and did what needed to be done in spite of poor command guidance. That was true in Viet Nam and is true in Afghanistan and Iraq. It'll be true tomorrow as well...

I'd also suggest that the average LT may be aware of FM 3-24 and that may not be true of FM 3-0. I very strongly doubt the average SFC pays much attention to either. That's okay, too...

...Is our Army, as General Casey has warned, “out of balance?” I think it is.

Possibly true, certainly the focus now -- understandably -- is on COIN and training is strongly biased in that direction in units also understandably because that's what they're doing. My spies tell me that ain't necessarily true in the schoolhouse...

And that is a good thing.

... main cause of the lowered levels of violence but the neo-con spin machine would have us believe otherwise (see in this regard Kim Kagan’s newest oped running today in the WSJ.)

I don't pay any attention to the domestic politics of the situation because various ideologies come and go and most are meaningless froth. The neo con foolishness of today is not nearly as inimical to the nation as was the the liberal foolishness of the 60s. I do agree that, militarily, the surge had little bearing on the overall effort in Iraq. As to whether that surge adversely impacted the institution that is the US Army; possibly. Too soon to tell. I do know that the Army's been around for over 200 years and has seen worse times than today. It's seen worse times in my lifetime for that matter...

... How else does one explain recent criticisms of certain Nato countries conducting Coin in Afghanistan?

Never underestimate the power of a Spook to say A to cause B to happen to provoke C to do D...

Galula needs to be challenged and read with a historical mindedness; that is to say we should not be looking to the past as a pool of lessons learned to be plucked at will, turned into doctrine, then applied dogmatically on the ground. This is not history but a pop-process of the production of lessons learned. It is hurting us more than helping us.

We can agree on the bulk of that; my only reservation is on the last sentence; I'm not at all sure it has done that at this time. It has the potential to do that and you are wise to counsel avoiding that result. It would also be wise not to return to total disavowal of COIN...

[Shek]

Could you please provide the title of Birtle's book; cannot find it or him through Google. I'll be interested in reading it.

Ken,

http://www.amazon.com/Counterinsurge...1373224&sr=8-1

This link is for the second volume - the first volume covers 1860-1941.

Shek

[Ken White]

Ken,

http://www.amazon.com/Counterinsurge...1373224&sr=8-1

This link is for the second volume - the first volume covers 1860-1941.

Shek

I have no clue why my Googling didn't turn it up -- other than sheer incompetence, of course...

Added:

Heh, Now I see, Gian said Andre and Birtle is Andrew; for want of a 'w' the battle, etc...

I also note it's from CMH. Interesting...

And that it's $49.00. Think I'll wait 'til next time I'm near a Post and hit the Library...

Hopefully, he gives any credit to the right folks in veet nam

[Ken White]

"Galula has his place. So does history. Neither are the answer in their own right, but can be part of a sound problem solving approach to the issue of countering insurgency. Overstating Galula's acknowledged influence (on either the FM or current operational thinking) does not do much to clarify or raise understanding of current activities."

Goodonya...

[Cavguy]

I defer to my work collegue "Hacksaw" here - for all the worry about our junior officers and NCO's only conceptualizing COIN - you can't have it both ways.

They were adaptable enough to shed MCO and learn COIN.

They are adapable enough to do the reverse, or even better, both, if we figured out how to balance our training base.

Their experience is not nested in FM's it's in practical experience. The reason why FM 3-24 gained wide acceptance is because it bore out the experiences and learnings of those who were "boots on the gound" from 2003 onward. Kilcullen's "28 Articles" was influential to me not so much because it taught me much that I didn't know - it was the first time in my career I had seen all my various education and experience to that point combined in a logical document that made sense.

There is a balance. We can't forget how to go toe to toe, and I don't think anyone's stated otherwise. But we also don't need a force that has to do 2003-2005 all over again, re-learning lessons from previous insurgencies as if they are something new.

Additionally, while the operational force may be COIN centric currently, our Leader development and education is almost the reverse. Consider that five years into two insurgencies we:

a) ....have no COIN proponent in the US Army (Well, the CAC commander is, by default), it hasn't been assigned.

b) have no TRADOC or CAC mandated COIN instruction in our centers and schools. There is absolutely ZERO COIN specific training tasks mandated in our current Professional Military education system. It is not required to be taught at all. Many schools have included it on their own, but it has not been directed for inclusion by the TRADOC commander.

c) have no defined plan to do either.

And I would say the momentum to do so is drying up as well as senior leaders grow more concerned about the loss of MCO capability. The Army has not taken action to make COIN knowledge a critical competency for the Army's future leaders in its eductional and training base. Once the war quits, we continue teaching Fulda. The experience rots, and 20 years later my son walks into a COIN scenario and learns the hard way everything the institution forgot.

Most educational and training base sites DO train COIN, but it's not a mandate from TRADOC. Which tells me when the current conflicts subside, that training will disappear unless action is taken.

Note also the insight from this current CGSC student here - it's true. CGSC removed its only mandatory COIN course a few years ago.

[Gian P Gentile]

...But we also don't need a force that has to do 2003-2005 all over again, re-learning lessons from previous insurgencies as if they are something new.(

Just curious as to your periodization and end point at 2005 when the Army finally got it and stopped relearning as you say lessons from previous insurgencies? Why not 2004? Why not 2006? What is your logic for ending in 2005?

Twenty years from now when histories are written about the Iraq war for tactics and operations they will show that by early to mid 2004 up through and to the end of the Surge threre was no substantial difference. Here is an example, Doug Olivant wrote about his experiences in 1st Cav in 04 to early 05 and at least as he states in a posting on this thread when he got back and read Galula it represented to him what he and his commander were thinking, and doing, when they were on the ground in Iraq in 2004/05.

There were some bumps along the way but early in the war and by early to mid 04 we had pretty much figured out how to do coin across the board in the force. Steve Metz says 2005 but i think it happened much earlier.

[Ken White]

have a kid who was there and who is very much convinced -- as is most everyone else I've talked to -- that it varied a great deal from unit to unit (or Commander to Commander, sometimes but not always synonymous with the unit) in the '03 to about '05 period. He was there fall of '03, spring '04.

I think most are using 05 because that appears to be about the time the whole Army got it. I suspect it also has a little to do with the departure of Ricardo
Sanchez in Jun of '04 and about six months for Casey to make an imprint and with the rotation cycles, OIF 3 was the first rotation that had been 'COIN trained' prior to deployment if my memory serves (always a dicey proposition...) and it was the one that took 3d ID back in a different mode than had been their first trip.