Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 66

Thread: Blasphemy: Article advocates afternoon PT

  1. #1
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default Blasphemy: Article advocates afternoon PT

    Good article in this month's Military Review:


    Afternoon PT: Key for an Army Flextime Battle Rhythm
    Captain Mark Van Horn, U.S. Army

    With great stress, commanders are seeking better ways to help. They
    encourage Soldiers to spend time with their loved ones, but they must bal-
    ance the requirements of reintegration with compressed pre-deployment
    training. This is a notoriously tight rope to walk. Morning physical training
    (PT) determines when Soldiers report for work. Close of business comes
    when—as a member of a team, squad, or platoon—all the work is finished.
    There is a more productive way to approach this routine and preserve the
    cohesion of the unit: make PT an afternoon ritual. If commanders simply
    shift the physical training time from morning to afternoon and empower
    company-grade leaders to send Soldiers home when the work is done, the
    Army will have a flextime schedule that works with regimentation. Soldiers
    will get the opportunity to spend more time with their families, pursue
    personal interests, and generally improve their quality of life, with reduced
    stress, less commute times, and better health.
    .....
    Convincing case.

    I don't see the current crop of CSM's ever allowing it - it just isn't done that way!
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    I pushed for this when I was a platoon leader and one of my commanders did, as well. It was partly for reasons cited in the article and also due to the fact that the division was way overstrength after our first deployment, due to stop-loss and stop-move. Gates to get on post were backed up for miles from about 0500 to 0600 and then the entire post was gridlocked immediately after PT. We wanted to save our Soldiers hours of time in the morning and then spend only an hour or so in the afternoon instead. The consensus view against us was...
    1) the chain of command feared that if we broke from our routine then units would find excuses to let Soldiers go home early without doing PT; if not all units do PT at the same time, then how would leaders check up to make sure it was happening? (You can't make that up).
    2) running would be "unsafe" because roads would not be closed off (as they are in the morning) and other units are racing home at that time
    3) having some units do first formation at 0600 and others at 0900 would complicate accountability (I guess accountability of personnel is handled at division???)
    4) We would lose out on the sense of espirit de corps that we apparently get by having everyone do PT at the same time (I never really felt any sense of espirit de corps when my platoon would run through the CSS area and pass by couples who spent their PT hours walking around and holding hands or sitting in their cars and listening to the radio).

  3. #3
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default I'm not sure it's all the CSMs...

    Not to defend them, many are guilty of a terrifying lack of imagination among other things but they are not alone in that. I recall reading in the International Edition of Newsweek in the mid-70s when the "Pro-Life" 2d Inf Div would have been unable to fight its way out of a paper bag but was an unusual sociological experiment the comment that if "...the North Koreans are smart, they'll attack the South at 0600 when the entire US 2d Division is out in shorts and T-Shirts running four miles on the road every morning."

    Not to mention that said running did NOT equip the troops to climb those Korean hills with 90 pounds on their backs...

    That said, there was a time before the Army developed its misplaced and not terribly productive PT and running fetish when units did PT before lunch, in the afternoons and even in the cool of the evening. It was a unit choice and there were frequent variations, even some days when there was no PT! -- that was back in the day when a Company could write its own training schedule and not be dictated to by an overranked Bn S3. The S3s are overranked to support OPM, not for any valid military reason and PT is vastly overrated as a conditioner and for development of the strengths, muscles and endurance required for combat.

    I've heard all the objections Schmedlap raised and more -- all are specious. Particularly the closing of roads, totally unnecessary unless you put everyone on the roads at the same time on some (not all) posts. Why not run cross country in boots and toughen the ankles. Or a fifteen mile cross country ruck and vest march. Better yet, why not an Obstacle or Confidence Course..

    If the Army really wants to develop flexibility, they'll return to that model. They might also consider going to a nine day on four / five day off (varying between the two in no set pattern) work period and occasionally combining two nine day 'on' periods for a more lengthy and realistic field exercise. That breaks up troops flooding town on weekends off, gets rid of the five day week syndrome and has several other benefits, not least scheduling ranges and training areas. It also mentally conditions the troops -- and their leaders -- for a war where there are no slack days or cycling to a FOB or the rear. Yeah, I know. But it also spreads out use of the Post Golf course...

    Soldiering is an outdoor sport and it is not an eight to five plus structured early morning PT five day week sort of job. Too easy to forget that if one is not careful. Habits and mental conditioning can be dangerous...

  4. #4
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Chapel Hill, NC
    Posts
    1,177

    Default Other Alternatives

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Why not run cross country in boots and toughen the ankles. Or a fifteen mile cross country ruck and vest march. Better yet, why not an Obstacle or Confidence Course..

    Soldiering is an outdoor sport and it is not an eight to five plus structured early morning PT five day week sort of job. Too easy to forget that if one is not careful. Habits and mental conditioning can be dangerous...
    We started doing combat-focused PT like this back in 2005 at the suggestion of a very smart infantry major. All running was done in the training area, and we would mix in jumping over connexes and fences to condition the boys for clearing gates and other urban structures. Almost all PT was squad/section level minus the mandatory unit "fun" runs. Once a week, combatives replaced the run. Squadron Runs typically ended after running through a training area and an obstacle course.

    Additionally, officer PT consisted of 3 mile release runs tranisitioning into group competitions of an additional three miles of litter carry (after inserting an IV), LMTV tire push, Buddy Carries, until we reached the gym and maxed out repititions on the bench and hit the ropes to climb.

    It was different: mentally and physically challenging. Moreover, it was fun. It worked.

    Over the last two years, some SF'ers and Seals introduced me to yoga, Cross-Fit, and kettle bells as additional workouts to help repair the lower back after long tours of wearing the body armor.

    The days of 8-10 mile runs are over even if we haven't realized it yet.

    Plus, all that training was a good way to avoid the "thought police" (the Div CSM's minions that run around Ardennes looking for uniform violations!!!!).

    v/r

    Mike

  5. #5
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Good for all of 'em. On the mod PT, that is...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    Over the last two years, some SF'ers and Seals introduced me to yoga, Cross-Fit, and kettle bells as additional workouts to help repair the lower back after long tours of wearing the body armor.
    Yes. I'm waiting for my son to drop one his several Kettlebells on his head...
    The days of 8-10 mile runs are over even if we haven't realized it yet.
    Long overdue, that.
    Plus, all that training was a good way to avoid the "thought police" (the Div CSM's minions that run around Ardennes looking for uniform violations!!!!).
    Minions? Tommy doesn't need minions. Though I can understand why some of his predecessors did...
    Last edited by Ken White; 10-12-2009 at 11:50 PM. Reason: Glad/happy

  6. #6
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    499

    Default

    Glad to see more units doing combat focused PT.

    But there is one good thing about early morning cardio, especially when done in a fasted state: it seems to work better for taking off weight. The theories behind this are not universally accepted but if you google "morning cardio" or "AM cardio" you should find articles that go into it. Fight trainers have known this for decades and continue with "morning roadwork" for fighters, especially those who have to make weight.

    Just something to keep in mind if you have any porkys in your unit on a remedial program. Even if the rest of the unit does PT in the evening you might want to have porky come in early and knock out the miles.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  7. #7
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    Added benefit: sick call is in the morning. PT is in the afternoon. No more missing PT due to sick call.

    Good point by Rifleman in regard to Porky, though I would favor his morning PT beginning at 0830 so that his team leader isn't punished for inheriting a fat-bodied troop. Most team leaders, from what I observed, inherited their disgusting fat bodies. They were not responsible for creating them. That was particularly the case upon redeployment when rear-detachment Soldiers were reintegrated into the unit. Some of them were clearly attempting to eat their way to freedom while the adult supervision was away. For a team/section leader fresh off of a deployment to inherit one of those train wrecks was just (bad) luck of the draw.

  8. #8
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    489

    Default

    I did PT in the afternoon when I was stationed in the Beltway, and have continued this "new" found process here at Leavenweorth for the last two years.

    Usually go from 1600-1700, maybe a little later or even after dinner. Depends on the reading/writing schedule.

    I'd much rather do it later in the day.
    "Speak English! said the Eaglet. "I don't know the meaning of half those long words, and what's more, I don't believe you do either!"

    The Eaglet from Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland

  9. #9
    Council Member jkm_101_fso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Kabul
    Posts
    325

    Default

    Apparently, Fort Riley experimented with this concept a few years back...morning "work" formation at 0700 and PT from 1500-1600. It went on for a while, but as soon as the new command group came in, it went back ot 0630.
    Sir, what the hell are we doing?

  10. #10
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    kettle bells as additional workouts to help repair the lower back after long tours of wearing the body armor.

    Mike
    I don't think we have kettle bells in Alabama......are they like dumb bells or something??

  11. #11
    Registered User Ben_0802's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Fort Sill
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    We started doing combat-focused PT like this back in 2005 at the suggestion of a very smart infantry major. All running was done in the training area, and we would mix in jumping over connexes and fences to condition the boys for clearing gates and other urban structures. Almost all PT was squad/section level minus the mandatory unit "fun" runs. Once a week, combatives replaced the run. Squadron Runs typically ended after running through a training area and an obstacle course.
    Love the combat focused PT! This is coming from a Marine on an Army base, but I almost never see units here conducting anything outside of runs, pu's and su's.

    I am trying to expose my Lt's, both Army and Marine to different types of PT, and show them that there ways beyond running to get outstanding workouts in.

    We need to train for the rigors of combat, not the 30 min it takes to run a PFT.

    S/F
    Ben

  12. #12
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ski View Post
    I did PT in the afternoon when I was stationed in the Beltway, and have continued this "new" found process here at Leavenweorth for the last two years.
    I hated doing PT in the mornings when I was in a maneuver unit. But when I moved to the beltway, I started voluntarily waking up even earlier to hit the gym as soon as it opened. Maybe it's because I was doing a workout that made sense for me (someone who is naturally thin) rather than a workout designed to ensure that Soldiers don't get fat.

    In the beltway, I hated being in a unit where the lowest ranking guy was an E6... except when it came to PT, because it was big boy rules. The downside was that some of the kids couldn't play by the big boy rules. I was embarrassed on behalf of the Army when our unit took an APFT. Commissioned officers failing the run, doing the minimum number of pushups/situps. During one APFT, I was the only person who did a full two-minutes of each, without quitting. Unbelievable. A Major actually asked me, "why did you do the full two minutes?" I was tactful.

    Those cases aside, I think there is also a lot to be said for having greater control over one's workout. Much of our PT regimen in the maneuver world was dictated by higher (division mandated combatives on Thu; Div, Bde, or Bn held group runs on Fridays; other random stuff - my personal favorite was scheduling the obstacle course for my platoon and then being locked down in the company area for a surprise urinalysis and having someone call the unit to chew out my commander because my platoon was a no-show).

    Regarding other comments about combat-focused PT...

    One of the obstacles to not doing more combat-focused PT is that the chain of command gets too deep into the weeds, planning much of it for you; or you plan something and then the training calender gets turned upside down. For example, I was never a fan of doing combatives for PT, but it was dictated. Combatives requires a lot of practice. I think we sacrificed developing skills by using it for PT rather than looking at it in the way that we look at marksmanship. Would you do stress shoots as a form of PT before you teach your Soldiers the fundamentals of marksmanship? That is essentially what we were doing with combatives.

  13. #13
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Links

    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    I don't think we have kettle bells in Alabama......are they like dumb bells or something??
    at the bottom of this LINK.Yet another thing we copied from the Russians. The Spetsnaz used them. Some guys have three or four different sizes / weights.I'd be surprised if some of the APs at Maxwell weren't into 'em...

    They've got a lot of benefits: LINK.

  14. #14
    Registered User AlifBaa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Here.
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    Commissioned officers failing the run, doing the minimum number of pushups/situps. During one APFT, I was the only person who did a full two-minutes of each, without quitting. Unbelievable. A Major actually asked me, "why did you do the full two minutes?" I was tactful.
    This is the ugly side of the Army's cultural emphasis on "standards," and the reason I refuse to let my guys talk about minimums. Instead, I make them keep track of their personal bests, and egg them on to shave off a few seconds or get one more rep. Like riding a motorcycle, you'll end up where your eyeballs are focused.

    I don't see a reason to draw a distinction between combatives and PT. What good is a skilled fighter without conditioning? As a MCMAP instructor, I consider conditioning an integral part of martial arts training. That doesn't mean my guys are in PT uniforms chanting jodies; you'll find them doing pugil stick fights while winded from the o-course, or ground fighting between rounds of calisthenics. They get way more cardio from exercise combined with the adrenaline of competition and violence...and it's not bad for developing aggression, either.

  15. #15
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AlifBaa View Post
    I don't see a reason to draw a distinction between combatives and PT.
    "PT" is a misnomer. It is more appropriately called physical conditioning. Combatives is training on a set of skills.

    I've got no problem with a bunch of jui-jitsu blackbelts using a combatives session as their day of "PT." I do have a problem with Soldiers who are not proficient in combatives spending an hour grappling, with the focus on a cardio workout, rather than focusing on technique. When you practice the wrong technique - which is more likely to occur when you first practice it while exhausted - then you develop motor memory of the wrong technique. Learn the technique, get it right (in other words, train). Then, when you're proficient, you can do it while exhausted for your day of conditioning.

    We don't do stress shoots before basic rifle marksmanship. Likewise, I see no logic in learning combatives during hours of "PT."

  16. #16
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    8,060

    Default Combatives were introduced to counter the fact that

    kids today can reach age 18 without ever having been struck or striking anyone else. Combatives are mostly a way to let people hit others and get hit and learn that the world doesn't come to an end.

    Various forms of combatives are used by various units and forces but few are really combat skills. The reason for that is the true infantry hand to hand combat skills are -- or certainly should be -- deadly. Literally. Few forces today are willing to impart such knowledge to average troops due to fear of misuse.

    Schmedlap is totally correct:
    "...When you practice the wrong technique - which is more likely to occur when you first practice it while exhausted - then you develop motor memory of the wrong technique. Learn the technique, get it right (in other words, train). Then, when you're proficient, you can do it while exhausted for your day of conditioning.
    That's important...

    However, I think on this:
    We don't do stress shoots before basic rifle marksmanship."
    We need to do the same thing -- get the basics thoroughly embedded using enhancements to this methodology (LINK) then go to stress shoots. Combat is a stress shoot..

  17. #17
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    4,818

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    kids today can reach age 18 without ever having been struck or striking anyone else. Combatives are mostly a way to let people hit others and get hit and learn that the world doesn't come to an end.

    Various forms of combatives are used by various units and forces but few are really combat skills. The reason for that is the true infantry hand to hand combat skills are -- or certainly should be -- deadly. Literally. Few forces today are willing to impart such knowledge to average troops due to fear of misuse.
    Thats a big 10-4 on that. Real street fighting ain't like combatives.....it has only one rule the first person to cheat is probably going to win

  18. #18
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    1,444

    Default

    Whatever we decide, let's not copy the physical conditioning program that the Iranians are using...


    However, the Taliban might be on to something...



    Where is Tony Little? Doesn't he recognize a new market opening up here?
    Last edited by Schmedlap; 12-04-2009 at 09:32 PM.

  19. #19
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    1,127

    Default

    Is the top guy Tom Odom??!?!

    (I'm in trouble now!)
    "A Sherman can give you a very nice... edge."- Oddball, Kelly's Heroes
    Who is Cavguy?

  20. #20
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    1,457

    Default

    Wow, I thought the Air Force uniforms were bad. And you'd think the Iranian President, with the billions put into the nuclear program, would be able to afford a decent tailor.

Similar Threads

  1. Crimes, War Crimes and the War on Terror
    By davidbfpo in forum Law Enforcement
    Replies: 600
    Last Post: 03-03-2014, 04:30 PM
  2. Fundamentals of the Battle Captain
    By jcustis in forum Doctrine & TTPs
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 04-13-2011, 01:01 AM
  3. Is it time for psuedo operations in A-Stan?...
    By jcustis in forum OEF - Afghanistan
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 09-11-2009, 11:05 AM
  4. Colin Gray's New Article in SSQ
    By Gian P Gentile in forum Catch-All, Military Art & Science
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-16-2007, 05:43 AM
  5. Former NIO Pillar Article on Intel and Iraq
    By Tom Odom in forum Training & Education
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-29-2006, 04:04 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •