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Thread: Law Enforcement Analysis

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapout9 View Post
    If understand the problem correctly? you are frustrated because of a lack of results from your hard efforts?
    Just trying to get a different perspective that's all. Not trying to suggest I'm some kind of wunderkind because I ain't.

  2. #42
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Does LE intelligence learn?

    In the UK intelligence-led policing (ILP) has been under scrutiny at intervals, for example the latest enquiry into the use of undercover officers within an environmental group by the national inspectorate (HMIC).

    I am mindful of Sergeant T's comments and the shoulder patch.

    Many years substantial crime analysis on commercial robbery highlighted the attacks at post offices and to lesser extent banks. Preventative action was taken, target hardening and the robbers migrated their attention elsewhere, to smaller shops.

    Then political attention was directed to mounting car crime and the response by the car manufacturers was steadily better car locks and ignition systems. Car crime slipped and then the M.O. changed, threats / use of violence to get car keys from the driver / owner. A far greater level of violence than before. Now we have the situation few cars can be stolen without the keys, where fewer stolen cars are recovered and there are more stolen cars on the road than before.

    ILP led IIRC - rightly - to targeting a particular high profile drug scene in Liverpool, this took months and after arrest / conviction the new dealers were far more violent than the "old hands". Which led many to ask was the approach right?

    Part of the problem is that ILP, especially with the advances of I.T., has become remote from those on the streets and is increasingly directed to support management decision-making.

    Yes, commercial databases e.g. Choice Point in the USA and Credit Expert here offer opportunities for LE, notably in tracing witnesses, warrants and suspects. They also have significant drawbacks, especially from those who think and adjust their life-style.
    davidbfpo

  3. #43
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Back again

    In my LE career, with a large part in intelligence, each time I noted there was a bigger gap between intelligence and operations. Intelligence by the 1990's was better understood by management to provide situational awareness, where it generally failed was to direct resources to problems and suspects - as so much effort was absorbed by response policing.

    Pre-emptive action was rare and all too often intelligence was demanded after an event to guide an investigation.

    The advent of better I.T., notably easy to access databases, made it easy for users to see intelligence as a reference library and not something they should contribute to. Yes, there can be security issues, IMHO they are nothing compared to the practice of officers / staff retaining information and alas forgetting.

    Intelligence needs to add value and when directed invariably achieves results.
    davidbfpo

  4. #44
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    My personal experiences are with a small (30 sworn) municipal agency: not big city but not quite podunk Andy and Barney. In a lot of ways we are too big to be little and too little to be big.

    We are mostly reactive. Proactivity is often limited to being a visible presence in the community until something is in progress. It just seems to be the nature of the beast.

    Slowandsteady, my thoughts on your thoughts:

    1) Reports (by analysts) that describe crimes/criminal groups, there is no "so what/now what" mindset.
    Let's say the report was on an outlaw motorcycle gang and they're coming through your area on a "run." Proactivity (the "so what/now what") will be limited to increasing officer presence and making as many contacts with them as you have a legal reason to do (for traffic infractions, noise complaints, etc.) in order to field interview and ID as many as possible. A high volume of penny ante (aka "chicken s**t") traffic stops can also lead to a lot of warrant arrests but that's about the limit of proactivity. You can't just use intelligence reports that say these bikers are known to be bad dudes to have a SWAT raid on the bar they're drinking in. That would be PH (probable hunch). That darn 4th Amendment again!

    2) A reluctance by middle and senior management to be more tactical in their approach, for example working with different units to develop a more detailed picture of the environment they are operating in.
    It happens to be sure but see answer to #3 below. Also, sometimes politics plays a role with "different units" when it comes time to act on intelligence. For instance, we recently had some pro-life demonstrators in town and we knew from intelligence they were somewhat radical in their approach. The sheriff wanted his deputies to be seen by the community but not take much enforcement action. When it came time to make arrests the PD were the ones going hands on and getting our pictures in the paper.

    3) Communication - we have had guys working different ends of the same case from the same office, and yet not realized this. I believe the challenge is getting officers comfortable that sharing information won't compromise their case/job security.
    I'm sure this happens more often in large agencies but we mostly cooperate well internally as well as with the sheriff's office and to a lesser extent the highway patrol. For instance, we often have auto burglars hitting cars in the town and county in the same night and our report writing system will link the related cases so everyone is briefed. Having said that, sometimes things will fall through the cracks - just happens.
    Last edited by Rifleman; 05-30-2011 at 10:25 PM.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  5. #45
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    That darn 4th Amendment again!
    *sigh*

    I complained a lot here, with concerns that first appeared to be kind of respected as reasonable.

    Few replies later, the thread has dived so quickly and so deeply downwards that a SWC member is swearing about a constitutional provision that protects citizens against arbitrariness and repression by the state.



    I get it that Americans think their country is exceptional and they don't think that they need to learn from others' experiences. Yeah, sure, most of the time you guys think that your country is immune to the evil that rid history in other countries.
    It's always the others. Even when you cuss about things going wrong at home, it's always the others - never it's your own responsibility to resist a current that goes into a dangerous direction.


    When will you guys learn to draw a line, to respect a Rubicon instead of crossing it, no matter how small the step appears to be?

    This Rubicon should be to not discuss LE issues in a forum that was meant to discuss warfare topics.


    What do you guys expect will come out of this thread? Lessons learned in oppression of even most resolute political opposition in other countries that can be transferred to domestic police work?
    Ever heard of Pandora's box?


    Please. Lock this thread!
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 05-31-2011 at 12:56 PM. Reason: PM sent in response to request to lock thread

  6. #46
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    On a day to day basis what I get from fusion centers falls into 2 category's: federal reports/bulletins and officer safety bulletins. I agree with your observations about the wins being tactical in nature, although I think fusion centers are missing a trick when it comes to linking these tactical events up to form a statewide strategy (where appropriate).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sergeant T View Post
    Fusion centers were supposed to address this to some degree. From the street level I never saw any evidence of that. For that matter, I saw very little evidence that they actually existed at all. They were the Roach Motel of information. To be of any use or utility at all intelligence would have to flow both ways across jurisdictional boundaries, and that seems anathema to just about every law enforcement organization's genetic programming.

    I came to the conclusion a few years ago that police intelligence/crime analysis is always going to be in a rut to some degree because all of their "wins" are tactical in nature. (Granted, some tactical wins are pretty big, but none rise to the level of game changer.) You don't get a strategic win because as you're taking perps off the conveyor belt at your end new ones are being fed into the game on the back end. The philosophical underpinning would be Camus's Myth of Sisyphus. I always wanted a unit patch with this image..



    And I'd have to agree hard with Slap. ChoicePoint (now part of LexisNexus) and the big three credit agencies wield an impressive amount of data and power. Anybody with an Android phone and a gmail account volunteers an incredible amount of information to a company we're trusting to be benevolent.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    In my LE career, with a large part in intelligence, each time I noted there was a bigger gap between intelligence and operations. Intelligence by the 1990's was better understood by management to provide situational awareness, where it generally failed was to direct resources to problems and suspects - as so much effort was absorbed by response policing.

    Pre-emptive action was rare and all too often intelligence was demanded after an event to guide an investigation.

    The advent of better I.T., notably easy to access databases, made it easy for users to see intelligence as a reference library and not something they should contribute to. Yes, there can be security issues, IMHO they are nothing compared to the practice of officers / staff retaining information and alas forgetting.

    Intelligence needs to add value and when directed invariably achieves results.
    I agree, I think it's sometimes seen as a 'silver bullet', as opposed to a tool that can be used in specific scenarios to provide support to officers in the field/investigations.

  8. #48
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    Let's say the report was on an outlaw motorcycle gang and they're coming through your area on a "run." Proactivity (the "so what/now what") will be limited to increasing officer presence and making as many contacts with them as you have a legal reason to do (for traffic infractions, noise complaints, etc.) in order to field interview and ID as many as possible. A high volume of penny ante (aka "chicken s**t") traffic stops can also lead to a lot of warrant arrests but that's about the limit of proactivity. You can't just use intelligence reports that say these bikers are known to be bad dudes to have a SWAT raid on the bar they're drinking in. That would be PH (probable hunch). That darn 4th Amendment again!
    Definitely, there are just some situations where you're only able to give your people advanced warning, and some details on possible MO.

    It happens to be sure but see answer to #3 below. Also, sometimes politics plays a role with "different units" when it comes time to act on intelligence. For instance, we recently had some pro-life demonstrators in town and we knew from intelligence they were somewhat radical in their approach. The sheriff wanted his deputies to be seen by the community but not take much enforcement action. When it came time to make arrests the PD were the ones going hands on and getting our pictures in the paper.
    I've come to realize that it's as much a part of this job as any, people have all different types of approaches, and it can often depend on who is the chief.

    I'm sure this happens more often in large agencies but we mostly cooperate well internally as well as with the sheriff's office and to a lesser extent the highway patrol. For instance, we often have auto burglars hitting cars in the town and county in the same night and our report writing system will link the related cases so everyone is briefed. Having said that, sometimes things will fall through the cracks - just happens.

  9. #49
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    Angry

    Guess I should have used an emocon with that line to denote humor.

    Fuchs,

    *sigh*

    Mostly I enjoy reading your posts and think you usually make a well reasoned and positive contribution to the discussion here - but sometimes you really do take yourself too seriously.

    I will explain myself to you out of courtesy for others who are reading, not because I owe you any justification.

    I swore to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I do, including the 4th Amendment. And sometimes domestic enemies are rogue cops. I consider myself subject to King Constitution the way others in the world might consider themselves subject to a monarch. That's my true faith and allegiance.

    I do not want to live in a police state and I believe in learning from the experiences of others - including early American colonists who were subject to unreasonable searches and seizures.

    Regarding your signature: sometimes you do look provacative in a thoughtful way - and sometimes you just look like a ass!
    Last edited by Rifleman; 05-30-2011 at 11:16 PM.
    "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    In my LE career, with a large part in intelligence, each time I noted there was a bigger gap between intelligence and operations. Intelligence by the 1990's was better understood by management to provide situational awareness, where it generally failed was to direct resources to problems and suspects - as so much effort was absorbed by response policing.

    Pre-emptive action was rare and all too often intelligence was demanded after an event to guide an investigation.

    The advent of better I.T., notably easy to access databases, made it easy for users to see intelligence as a reference library and not something they should contribute to. Yes, there can be security issues, IMHO they are nothing compared to the practice of officers / staff retaining information and alas forgetting.

    Intelligence needs to add value and when directed invariably achieves results.
    As databases (particularly LE related) become more sophisticated, I think the line between information and intelligence, in particular IT's role in the whole process will probably become more blurred. Every department has budgets and wants to survive, some are more forward thinking than others.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rifleman View Post
    Guess I should have used an emocon with that line to denote humor.

    Fuchs,

    *sigh*
    Rifleman, alot of folks just don't understand a Police sense of Humor. They just don't know what it is like out there. I have to go watch Gettysburg, trying to think of some old stuff about pro-active Police Work.
    Last edited by slapout9; 05-30-2011 at 11:44 PM. Reason: stuff

  12. #52
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    @Rifleman:

    I do not take myself seriously, but the issue that I am discussing about in here. You should be able to make that distinction.


    It's not about what people think of themselves. Few think that they do wrong.

    It's about resisting small steps into a wrong direction, even if the seem to be unimportant as for example making that 4th Amendment remark.

    Small, incremental steps add up, as if they were an intentional salami slice tactic - and some people even do this intentionally.
    You seem to think of yourself as a stalwart pro-constitution guy who cannot do wrong in regard to civil liberties.
    That basically means you're extremely prone to do what you think you would not do. You're simply not critical enough of yourself, not willing to resist the urge to tolerate the incremental steps. You see no evil in the tiny stuff, even though that adds up.

    In short; you were apparently raised in a country that did not apply lessons from experiencing the ruin of a republic and the establishment of dictatorship.


    Evil regimes aren't build on the foundation of evil men. They're being built on 5% evil men and 95% men who don't resist.

    - - - - -

    Again: Military and law enforcement should not be mixed in a Western-style state. Especially not if the former is being used to suppress resistance in foreign countries.


    Tell the LE guys to found their own forum and to draw lessons from foreign police institutions, not from the military or even from actively spying intelligence services.

  13. #53
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    slowandsteady,
    We used to have(a long time ago) a unit called the CIB (Criminal Identification Bureau). Now it sounds like a fingerprint unit but it wasn't, their job was to identify criminals that were coming into our jurisdiction (usually of the organized crime type) and then either monitor their activities or convince them that they should go someplace else. They were very proactive and intelligence and analysis(all done by hand,telephone,typewriters,teletype) was pretty much their stock and trade. We didn't have dedicated Crime Analyst back then. If you were a criminal they were bad news but there was little if any threat to Americas civil liberties. Which while I am on that, the coming digitalization, and centralization of medical records into the hands of privately run health insurance companies is going to far outstrip the average Americans civil liberties than anything the patriot act is ever going to do.

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