Cumulative impact of low calorie intake and sleep deficit in combat

[Schmedlap]

In a recent blog post, Bernard Finel takes the military, and government in general, to task for "a weird macho culture" where there is an assumption that "working more hours inherently boosts productivity." I agree that this assumption is not wise, but where I part ways with Bernard is where he critiques McChrystal's now well-known routine of 4 or 5 hours of sleep, lots of running, and one meal per day. He suggests that the impact of such a regimen may be on par with the impairment brought about by small quantities of alcohol.

He specifically states: "We essentially have a general running the war in Afghanistan probably with the impairment level of someone with 2-3 beers in him 24/7, actually worse since sleep deprivation is cumulative."

I disagree with this. My comment is excerpted below...

When you are this immersed in something that you are obsessed with, fatigue becomes less of a factor in your ability to focus... If you legitimately think his routine is too much, I’d say there are thousands of other Officers pushing themselves much harder and, in hindsight, I don’t think it affected anyone’s ability to function.

He doesn't seem to agree. Just curious what the thoughts are from the council. I'm guessing that many here have had similar experiences and that many had experiences more demanding than mine.

We have all had the occasional, abnormal experience - whether in Ranger School, in combat, or in some other odd circumstance - where we knew that we had not had enough sleep and we were pushing ourselves beyond a reasonable limit, but sleeping simply was not an option. I am not asking about extreme, short bursts of no sleep, no food, etc. I am curious about the long-term, cumulative effect of less sleep, less food, more strenuous activity, and heightened mental activity.

Do any of you look back upon your deployments and think, "boy, I thought I was thinking straight, but in hindsight, I was way too tired."

I recall extended periods (weeks/months) of getting no more than a few hours of sleep per night - often going for days without sleep. The only time that it impacted me, imo, was when I was doing something that I absolutely hated and had no interest in - like reviewing the document control register or inspecting the always-substandard 5988E's that my crews would pencil-whip. If it was a tactical task, my head was in the game - regardless of the cumulated months of less sleep, less food, etc.

Thoughts? Comments?

Just to be clear, it is optional to begin your comments with "no sh--, there I was..."

[Fuchs]

He should be judged by performance, not by the exploitation of his potential.


On the performance part; I think it's a terrible example. Leaders should lead by example, and sleep deprivation and unhealthy eating habits are terrible examples.
Not a single captain should have the opportunity to justify excessive strains by pointing at the unhealthy lifestyle of the theater commander.

[Schmedlap]

On the performance part; I think it's a terrible example. Leaders should lead by example, and sleep deprivation and unhealthy eating habits are terrible examples.

Agreed, but is 4 or 5 hours "deprivation?" The Army only owes each Soldier 4 hours. At least that is what I was taught. And is his diet "unhealthy?" It looked like he was eating some pretty good food when I saw him chowing down on CBS. It was one meal, but I didn't hear a calorie count or any mention of inadequate nutritional value.

[carl]

Being a thin mid-50s aged male is something I can speak to from current experience. I find I can do quite a lot now with only one meal a day, and that includes 1.5 to 2 hours of quite hard exercise (save the wisecracks). I don't lose weight and don't feel weak nor do I think it affects my mental acuity (save those wisecracks too). That one meal is supplemented by eating little things here and there during the day, equal to less than an additional meal.

This I attribute to the normal effects of aging, one of which seems to be a reduced metabolism. Chicks don't dig me no more but I'm cheaper to feed.

As far as his need for such a short amount of sleep, that I would guess is just
an individual variation in sleep habit and need.

I do have very extensive experience with fatigue and how it affects performance, all who fly for a living do. Microsleeps on a tight instrument approach in bad weather, especially when you know it is happening and just can't get yourself to care much because you are so damn tired, are a bit spooky. Fatigue absolutely does affect your performance and there is not much you can do about it except get some sleep. The only effective way I have found to partially compensate is to recognize the symptoms and intentionally give myself greater leeway and not give myself greater challenges than my reduced capability can handle. Fatigue is an extremely serious thing.

[Bernard Finel]

I do want a clarify a point. I am quite sure that because of effective training, it is possible for people to respond appropriately to "expected" stimuli even when sleep deprived. I mean, that is the point of training.

But no one is trained to be a theater commander, especially in a complex enviroment like COIN. He needs to be able to constantly process new information and analyze it thoroughly.

Also... I gotta say, in every clip and interview I see of him, he looks like an automaton. Walking around from village to village saying, "what do you need? What can I give you?" and responding, "We're working on it, but it takes times" to every response.

In neither the 60 Minutes piece nor the NYT Magazine essay does it seem like he's actually processing much information. Just seems like he's on autopilot. I don't know him. Everyone I know who does says he's sharp as a tack, etc.

[carl]

I do want a clarify a point. I am quite sure that because of effective training, it is possible for people to respond appropriately to "expected" stimuli even when sleep deprived. I mean, that is the point of training.

This is absolutely not true. You can not train people to function effectively when sleep deprived. They may perform effectively. They may not. It is the luck of the draw. What you can do is train them to recognize this fact, to avoid fatigue to the extent they can and know when they are fatigued and act accordingly. This is a huge thing in aviation because of all the smoking wreckage containing the cinders of tired pilots.

[Ken White]

McChrystal's or anyone elses eating and sleeping habits are not among those few things. People are different, all have different food and sleep needs and all this foolishness about sleep deprivation is true but not an issue and is very much individual condition, experience, practice and metabolism related.

Carl is right that exhaustion kills and Intel Trooper is correct in noting that about 40 straight hours gets you to the point of non compos -- everyone's heard about Ranger students talking to trees...

Fuchs may be correct in stating that McChrystal is setting a bad example -- but I'm quite sure there are hundreds of 'leaders' over there setting far worse examples on many counts. A guy who sleeps little, doesn't overeat is probably one of the most benign bad examples I've run across. Not to mention that everyone in combat gets too little sleep and eats poorly --sort of goes with the territory.

That said, combat forces you to do without sleep at all levels from PVT to GEN; the body and mind adapt as best they can. Some do it well, some less so. It's a non-issue. Everyone adapts as well as possible and most get to the point where they can go 24-30 hours or so at a stretch without too much stress and can do that several times over the period of a week or so before they need an overnight sleep. It usually works out as things cycle.

Thus, to Schmedlap's question

Do any of you look back upon your deployments and think, "boy, I thought I was thinking straight, but in hindsight, I was way too tired."

my answer is Sure, several times in all of them. Not much could have been done about them, though. Until we do combat as shift work (not unthinkable...) we're going to have that problem but as Slap says:

"...all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine."

That's still true. Unfortunate, not ideal, not even marginally good -- but then war is unfortunate and not an ideal situation and there's nothing good about it...

As for McChrystal and the automaton bit; Generals are people. People vary. Everyone doesn't make useless chit chat or idle comments answering inane questions at length without saying anything of substance (thank goodness!). Creighton Abrams was one of our better products, probably with Ridgeway the best post WW II type and he was not a chatterer -- his best line was "Generals should be noted for their silences."

Note lengthy answer with little substance.

[IntelTrooper]

Agreed, but is 4 or 5 hours "deprivation?" The Army only owes each Soldier 4 hours. At least that is what I was taught. And is his diet "unhealthy?" It looked like he was eating some pretty good food when I saw him chowing down on CBS. It was one meal, but I didn't hear a calorie count or any mention of inadequate nutritional value.

I think what Army leaders need to remember is that everyone's body has different sleep and nutritional requirements. GEN McChrystal may only require 4 or 5 hours of sleep a night. I know lots of people who only sleep that much on a regular basis and suffer no ill effects. Personally, I need 8.5 hours of sleep per night in order to not feel like garbage all day. 4 to 5 hours would make me an angry zombie.

Once, we were up for nearly 48 hours due to a little situation we got into. Around hour 44, I decided I had figured out a solution, walked up to my team leader, and proceded to explain my brilliant plan. What came out of my mouth was a bunch of nonsense, as I gathered from the way his face contorted in a mixture of confusion and anger, so rather than try to explain, I just walked away.

While many in the military would be relatively unaffected by a stretch of two or three days without sleep, I am definitely not one of them.

[slapout9]

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed

[slapout9]

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed

Lack of sleep cann affect your spellin an stuff two

[MikeF]

When a group of officials came to see Lincoln about the rumors of Grant's drinking, Lincoln is supposed to have said, "If it [drink] makes fighting men like Grant, then find out what he drinks, and send my other commanders a case!".

Same holds true for GEN Patraeus and McChrystal. I don't care what their preferences are just let them keep trucking.

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed

Wise words. What concerns me more today is soldier's are drinking Monster energy drinks during the day and using Ambien to sleep. That's not good. Better to stick with black coffee and nicotene.

v/r

Mike