Cumulative impact of low calorie intake and sleep deficit in combat

[carl]

I think it is somewhere in the FAST program, I'll have to look for it, but there has been work done that directly relates sleep deficits to BAC, short by x hours = a BAC of .04 etc.

A for tired cops, absolutely positively true.

[Stan]

I think there is a very significant mental component to this stuff that is not accounted for in the equations and rules of thumb.

If I am doing something that I am interested in, then I can get completely immersed in it and lose track of time.

I got to thinking I heard that somewhere before regarding sleep deprivation among soldiers.

Turns out the U.S. Army Infantry School conducted sleep management and soldier readiness in 2005. Among other tips for leaders was...

* Never put Soldiers in a position where they must choose between sleep and something else they would enjoy.

Go Figure

And, here's one for Slapout !

If Sleep Loss Can't be Avoided:

* Use caffeine--drink the equivalent of two cups of coffee (~200 mg of caffeine) every two to four hours. Caffeine use as described above will help maintain performance even in the face of moderate sleep loss.

My personal preference with a good smoke is a beer

[Schmedlap]

That may be true for certain types of activities and certain people. I've heard tales of programmers who can stay up for days as you did on the op.

That happened to me when I was creating my website. There was a blizzard, road crews could barely keep up with the rate of snowfall to keep the roads clear, stores were closed, so I just brewed some coffee and went to work on the site at my kitchen table. I think I worked on it for 36 hours and then realized that I hadn't eaten or slept. Once I realized what had happened, I thought, "oh crap. Does this make me a computer geek?" I immediately went to the gym for 2 hours to atone for my geekery.

[MikeF]

When a group of officials came to see Lincoln about the rumors of Grant's drinking, Lincoln is supposed to have said, "If it [drink] makes fighting men like Grant, then find out what he drinks, and send my other commanders a case!".

Same holds true for GEN Patraeus and McChrystal. I don't care what their preferences are just let them keep trucking.

I had real old Platoon Sergeant tell all a GI needs is a cigarette and cup of Coffey now and then and everything will be fine. Hmmmm things have changed

Wise words. What concerns me more today is soldier's are drinking Monster energy drinks during the day and using Ambien to sleep. That's not good. Better to stick with black coffee and nicotene.

v/r

Mike

[slapout9]

My Platoon Sgt. second piece of wisdom was 8 hours wrapped up in a pancho liner on the ground in the rain does not equal 8 hours in the rack. Point being the quality of sleep and the environment has a lot to do with it. His words were a little more graphic but I think he had a point.

[Schmedlap]

Wise words. What concerns me more today is soldier's are drinking Monster energy drinks during the day and using Ambien to sleep.

The only time that I got Ambien was when it was given out to the entire unit for the plane ride to Iraq in 2007, to avoid jet lag. Have you seen it handed it for more casual use?

In regard to the energy drinks, why are we buying that stuff and stocking it in our PX and DFAC in-country? I don't get it. (Of course, I have the same question for most of the stuff that I saw in the PX and DFAC - and for most of the amenities provided).

[MikeF]

The only time that I got Ambien was when it was given out to the entire unit for the plane ride to Iraq in 2007, to avoid jet lag. Have you seen it handed it for more casual use?

In regard to the energy drinks, why are we buying that stuff and stocking it in our PX and DFAC in-country? I don't get it. (Of course, I have the same question for most of the stuff that I saw in the PX and DFAC - and for most of the amenities provided).

Energy drinks- I saw that from direct observation. Not good IMO.

Ambien- word of mouth. Guys talking about taking uppers during the day and downers at night. Really bad stuff over a long period of time.

v/r

Mike

[reed11b]

When I read the title, I was prepared for a smart-a** comment about ranger school. After reading the article and seeing that it doesn't apply, I won't. The Gen's routine doesn't sound ideal, but it hardly sounds dangerous. Reads like someone trying to make a story to me.
Reed
P.S. If there are so many rational individuals that understand that sleep deprivation is not something that can be "trained" for, why is there such rabid defense of Ranger school as it is?

[Ken White]

bottle of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate 5mg in their Aid Bags. They were authorized to pass 'em out to the Troops in combat or on exercises for 'Go pills.' They were occasionally passed out in combat, never to my knowledge in exercises -- though the Medics always said they passed out a bunch on exercises and thus got a resupply for personal use or sale...

They also had Benzodiazepine, the forerunner of Ambien, for stop pills. Not much call for them, people had no problem getting to sleep. Tranquilizer so some probably sold 'em from time to time.

I guess in today's paranoid and PC climate they or something like them are both gone from aid bags. Or perhaps there but a well kept secret...

[slapout9]

bottle of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate 5mg in their Aid Bags. They were authorized to pass 'em out to the Troops in combat or on exercises for 'Go pills.' They were occasionally passed out in combat, never to my knowledge in exercises -- though the Medics always said they passed out a bunch on exercises and thus got a resupply for personal use or sale...

They also had Benzodiazepine, the forerunner of Ambien, for stop pills. Not much call for them, people had no problem getting to sleep. Tranquilizer so some probably sold 'em from time to time.

I guess in today's paranoid and PC climate they or something like them are both gone from aid bags. Or perhaps there but a well kept secret...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytiy2...eature=related

[Umar Al-Mokhtār]

I heard McChrystal say in an interview that he munches on pretzels during the day and eats a large meal in the evening (he said he was a very large LT). While a nutritionist will no doubt say you shouldn't eat a large meal before bed, McChrystal probably goes to sleep late and runs an hour every morning, thus offsetting that. As long as he is consuming sufficient calories it probably doesn't matter too much, given his active life style, if he gets those calories in one meal or spread over three.

As to sleep everyone is different and it is said that as you get older you need less sleep. I usually get 6 to 7. Any more than that and I actually feel sluggish the following day. It was said Napoleon slept very little, but was prone to taking power naps in the field.

[Surf n Turf]

Back in the day, the Medics ALL had a 100 tablet
bottle of Dextroamphetamine Sulfate 5mg in their Aid Bags.

Ken,
I think those were called "anti-fatigue" pills , and after 3 days you could smell them in the sweat.
SnT

[Ken White]

an inclination to babble after about six hours...

[Ben_0802]

The only time that I got Ambien was when it was given out to the entire unit for the plane ride to Iraq in 2007, to avoid jet lag. Have you seen it handed it for more casual use?

In regard to the energy drinks, why are we buying that stuff and stocking it in our PX and DFAC in-country? I don't get it. (Of course, I have the same question for most of the stuff that I saw in the PX and DFAC - and for most of the amenities provided).

From my personal observations, the young Marines and Soldiers today are living on a steady stream of monster, rip it, red bull, whatever. When you're at a patrol base without power for days at a time, it's hard to brew coffee, so the energy drinks are the way to go. Not the perfect answer, but when you have to stay up, you find a way.

Then, when you come back, they have to sleep, so they take ambien to get rest. I know my docs were getting a little of it from our higher HQ, but we got a ton of it from SF medics we worked with. Also, with non-prescription versions becoming prevalent, they can get it sent from home.

As leaders, we just have to be cognizant of what's happening and keep an eye on our guys.

S/F
Ben

[Schmedlap]

Then, when you come back, they have to sleep, so they take ambien to get rest. I know my docs were getting a little of it from our higher HQ, but we got a ton of it from SF medics we worked with.

I don't dispute that it happens, but I question the rationale. If troops are so tired that they need coffee or energy drinks to stay awake, then doesn't it follow that when their work is done, they should be exhausted and able to fall asleep without ambien? None of my medics had access to it, let alone considered handing it out. I don't think we were superhuman. I think that the availability of things like this increase the tendency for it to be overprescribed.

[carl]

If troops are so tired that they need coffee or energy drinks to stay awake, then doesn't it follow that when their work is done, they should be exhausted and able to fall asleep without ambien?

That depends on where in the circadian rhythm they are when they try to sleep. If they are in the wrong place they won't be able to sleep or will get very poor quality sleep. If their rhythm is all mixed up, the result will be the same. It is a very difficult problem.

[Schmedlap]

That depends on where in the circadian rhythm they are when they try to sleep. If they are in the wrong place they won't be able to sleep or will get very poor quality sleep. If their rhythm is all mixed up, the result will be the same. It is a very difficult problem.

This is, admittedly, anecdotal, but my experience was that our routines were necessarily so random that it was impossible to develop a rhythm. Most of the time, when I stepped outside of the windowless CP of our patrol base, I wasn't sure whether to expect to see daylight or darkness unless I had just checked my watch. I've also never been awake for two days and then thought, "gee I should get some sleep, but who can fall asleep while the sun's up?"

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's applicable in an environment where schedules are so erratic.

[Ken White]

When you're at a patrol base without power for days at a time, it's hard to brew coffee, so the energy drinks are the way to go. Not the perfect answer, but when you have to stay up, you find a way.

I can see the kids on energy drinks -- most of 'em will not thus far have acquired the coffee habit. However, no power = no coffee?

A lump of C4 on the bottom of a canteen cup will fix that. Or one could forego a nice to have but not totally necessary $300.00 Suunto and buy one of these: LINK, or put some Diesel in a can full of sand...

[Schmedlap]

In 2005, a large attack on our patrol base knocked out our generator and we didn't have any power for our CP for about a week (other than a tiny backup generator that was just barely sufficient to power the radios). Without coffee, I was starting to really drag ass after a few days - not necessarily due to insufficient sleep, but rather due to an over-reliance on coffee. After returning from a patrol on day 5 of no coffee, I slumped down behind my desk and started poring over the always-substandard 5988E's that the crews had pencil-whipped. One of my NCOs stepped in, slapped a box of Marlboro Reds on my desk and said, "sir, you look like you're dragging ass. Let's go light up." We went outside and split the pack, chain-smoking the whole thing.

My understanding is that the first time someone tries a cigarette, it is an unpleasant experience and it takes at least a few days before they smoke more than one or two in one sitting. That half-a-pack chain smoke was the first 10 cigarettes that I had ever smoked in my life. I was awake, but really felt like crap, afterward.

[Fuchs]

What's so difficult about making coffee without electrical power?