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Thread: Terrorism in the USA:threat & response

  1. #101
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    I don't know if you were suggesting it, but I don't think this fits into the "right wing" category any more than Earth Liberation Front fits into "left wing". While they were targeting law enforcement (which, I guess could be considered "anti-government" and thus closer to the "limited gov't" right wing), the motivation seemed to be not political, but rather some kook supernatural belief that, unfortunately, they think is justified in scripture.

    Earlier today I had the pleasure of hearing people talk about this incident as though this is mainstream Christianity (or even substantially similar to Christianity). It's moments like these when I can better relate to Muslims who get annoyed when their religion gets a bad name from terrorists. Start with an ideology, go find a religious text, skim through it to find selected passages taken out of context that you can twist to fit your ends and then, presto, you're now a representative of that religion. Awesome.

  2. #102
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Tumbling out

    As if by magic:
    An undercover agent played a role in the investigation that led to Monday's indictments. Grand jury testimony by a law enforcement officer referred to an "undercover FBI agent" who worked on the case.
    Less certain and an opinion:
    At first "they just seemed like a down-to-earth hillbilly family," he said. "After 20 minutes into the meeting, I realized these guys are not dealing with a full deck.
    Link:http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...DDLETopStories
    davidbfpo

  3. #103
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    The operational and strategic mistakes of the Hutaree are almost comical. Based on the open source material available and assuming that the reports of the indictment are accurate, they have shown exactly how not to run a sectarian cell.
    Vae Victus

  4. #104
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default The FBI yet again sucks in a crew of misfits

    that are 'plotting' evil acts. Funny how so many of those publicized are like that, flakes that possibly pose some potential danger but also seem likely to never do much more than think grand thoughts -- and do little...

  5. #105
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    Ironically enough this case proves that there are WMDs in Iraq, ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree

  6. #106
    Council Member davidbfpo's Avatar
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    Default Puzzled

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullmoose Bailey View Post
    Ironically enough this case proves that there are WMDs in Iraq, ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree
    That statement is puzzling. Where in this unqualified, if useful Wikipedia source is the proof there were WMDs in Iraq?
    davidbfpo

  7. #107
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    The definition of WMD, which is linked.

  8. #108
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    Default Still puzzled

    Quote Originally Posted by Sumtingwong View Post
    The definition of WMD, which is linked.
    How does a US criminal code definition of WMD prove their presence in Iraq?
    davidbfpo

  9. #109
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    The WMD charge is predicated on the seeking of manufacture of EFPs. A wee bit of a stretch in my humble opinion but if an EFP is a WMD...
    Vae Victus

  10. #110
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    WMD in Iraq was a purely rhetorical argument. One cannot even attempt to objectively prove or disprove rhetoric.

  11. #111
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    Default Read this Wiki,

    Weapon of mass destruction; specifically this section:

    The US Code provides several different definitions of weapons of mass destruction, applicable in different contexts:

    For the general purposes of national defense,[19] US Code[20] defines a weapon of mass destruction as:

    "any weapon or device that is intended, or has the capability, to cause death or serious bodily injury to a significant number of people through the release, dissemination, or impact of—

    toxic or poisonous chemicals or their precursors;

    a disease organism; or

    radiation or radioactivity."[21]

    For the purposes of the prevention of weapons proliferation,[22] US Code defines weapons of mass destruction as:

    "chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, and chemical, biological, and nuclear materials used in the manufacture of such weapons."[23]

    For the purposes of US Criminal law concerning terrorism,[24] weapons of mass destruction are defined as:

    "any destructive device as defined in section 921 of this title;

    any weapon that is designed or intended to cause death or serious bodily injury through the release, dissemination, or impact of toxic or poisonous chemicals, or their precursors;

    any weapon involving a biological agent, toxin, or vector ...; or

    any weapon that is designed to release radiation or radioactivity at a level dangerous to human life."[25]

    The cited section 921 defines a destructive device as:

    "any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—bomb, grenade, rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces [113 grams], missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce [7 grams], mine, or device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses...."[26]

    19.^ US CODE: Title 50—War and National Defense
    20.^ US CODE: 50, ch. 40—Defense Against Weapons of Mass Destruction
    21.^ US CODE: 50, ch. 40, § 2302. Definitions
    22.^ US CODE: 50, ch. 43—Preventing Weapons of Mass Destruction Proliferation and Terrorism
    23.^ US CODE: 50, ch. 43; § 2902. Definitions
    24.^ US CODE: Chapter 113B—Terrorism
    25.^ US CODE: Title 18, § 2332a. Use of weapons of mass destruction
    26.^ US CODE: Title 18, § 921. Definitions
    Context, context, context.

  12. #112
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    Are any of these "heroes" ex military?

  13. #113
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    Ken's take on all this is the wisest. I wouldn't make any kind of judgment until the exact details of the offenses are known, what evidence they have and, maybe most important, who exactly the "undercover agent" was and how he fit into the whole thing.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  14. #114
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    Default Another snippet

    A curious, if wandering NYT article 'Militia Draws Distinctions Between Groups' and within is this:
    The crucial moment of that tension came Saturday night when one of the Stone family members — desperate and on the run from the law — called the local militia commander, Matt Savino, and begged for help in getting guns or shelter. Mr. Savino offered neither, not only refusing to help but in fact calling the State Police, who passed the call to the F.B.I.
    Note:
    Mr. Savino said that he converted to Islam in the late 1990s...
    Now that seems likely to be a catalyst for angst amidst the militia scene; a comment from an armchair afar.

    Link:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/us/01michigan.html?hp
    davidbfpo

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    A curious, if wandering NYT article 'Militia Draws Distinctions Between Groups' and within is this:

    Note:Now that seems likely to be a catalyst for angst amidst the militia scene; a comment from an armchair afar.

    Link:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/01/us/01michigan.html?hp
    Maybe, but it is an inaccurate perception that religion or racial issues are the main driving issues behind the militia movement - or at least in the 1990's version.

    The hipsters from Vice magazine had a good program on VBS.TV called Norm’s Militia Scrapbook, where they went and talked with the founding members of the Michigan Militia. It is an illuminating video; these guys weren’t hung up on any racial or religious issues.

  16. #116
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    Default Rashid Rauf - again (from the grave)

    Rashid Rauf, a UK citizen and "mastermind" has re-appeared in spirit, if this news report is believed:
    A British al-Qaeda commander planned to emulate the July 7 London suicide bombings with a coordinated attack on the New York subway system, it has emerged....(meeting the conspirators in the summer of 2008)...

    Intelligence agencies believe he died in an attack by a Predator unmanned drone in November 2008.
    Link:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rk-subway.html
    davidbfpo

  17. #117
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    Default Potential car bombing averted in NYC

    Last night in Times Square New York City, a vehicle was found to be equipped with what appeared to be a possible car bomb after arising the suspicions of the vendor in the area.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8657161.stm

  18. #118
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    Default Commentary

    I've watched the CNN footage and listened to some "talking heads" passing comment. Compliments to NYPD and others on the response after a member of the public called in.

    Some interesting comments - at a strategic level - by Steve Coll:http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...terrorism.html

    The country’s vulnerability arises not so much from the damage terrorists will cause but from American society’s self-defeating inability to see such violence in perspective and to find leadership and language to define national resilience.
    Further away and from a CT viewpoint:
    ..what strikes me about it all is the problem that repeatedly faces terrorists…actually getting something to go boom.
    Link:http://allthingsct.wordpress.com/201...-times-square/
    davidbfpo

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidbfpo View Post
    I've watched the CNN footage and listened to some "talking heads" passing comment. Compliments to NYPD and others on the response after a member of the public called in.

    Some interesting comments - at a strategic level - by Steve Coll:http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...terrorism.html



    Further away and from a CT viewpoint:

    Link:http://allthingsct.wordpress.com/201...-times-square/
    Apparently this all was connected to something larger,

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid..._explosion.htm

    Also surveillance could a "middle-aged white male" fleeing from the vehicle earlier before the incident. Although some are pointing to this as domestically connected the vehicle in question's tags were stolen and so does it appear the rigged vehicle also was.

  20. #120
    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin23 View Post
    Apparently this all was connected to something larger,

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid..._explosion.htm
    That needs to be taken as something less than revealed truth, as the sole source appears to be a 911 call. This sort of thing tends to draw all sorts out of the woodwork, and the call may have had no basis at all.

    Given the generally amateur appearance of the work and the amount of evidence left behind I don't expect it will take too long to find out who's responsible, and more will doubtless be known.

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