Gunmen attack Fort Hood, Texas

[Schmedlap]

Slap and JMM got me thinking. I was wrong on the irrational part.

I think state of mind and intent will be the big issues. How those are defined will be determined by what jurisdiction he is tried in, assuming he emerges from his coma.

[MikeF]

Don't ever mess with girls from Carolina with guns. You'll lose. Hopefully, she'll recover from her wounds soon. My mom told me that Hoggard High School is recognizing her tonight at the varsity football game.

Officer who shot suspect is a firearms expert

The police officer who brought down a gunman after he went on a shooting rampage at the Fort Hood Army base was on the way to have her car repaired when she heard a report over a police radio that someone was shooting people in a center where soldiers are processed before they are deployed abroad, authorities said on Friday.

As she pulled up to the center, the officer, Kimberly Munley, spotted the gunman, Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, brandishing a pistol and chasing a wounded soldier outside the building, said Chuck Medley, the director of emergency services at the base.

Sergeant Munley bolted from her car and shot at Major Hasan. He turned toward her and began to fire. She ran toward him, continuing to fire, and both she and the gunmen went down with several bullet wounds, Mr. Medley said...

Sergeant Munley comes from North Carolina, where her father owns a hardware store in Carolina Beach and is a former mayor. She attended Hoggard County High School.

[slapout9]

Just caught the tail end of a tv report and Col. Jack Jacobs was talking about how the number of wounds and bullets don't seem to add up? He then remarked some injuries may have been due to friendly fire? Anybody else heard anything like this?

[Schmedlap]

I heard the term "friendly fire" used on the radio. I think it was referring to the possibility that the police officer's hail of bullets could have struck individuals other than the shooter. Unfortunate, if true, but excusable.

[jmm99]

if he wanted out of the Army, was simply to refuse the deployment order; at which point he would be charged under the UCMJ for refusal of a lawful order and the process would have gone from there - probably ending up in some sort of compromise plea bargain[*]. In any event, no killings.

No, much more than that was involved here. You don't take down the equivalent of 1-1/2 platoons without very strong convictions about your "right" to do so. In the abstract, that "right" could be irrational or rational. In the fact, it was either one or the other.

Perhaps, we have a problem with the concept that a native-born American (a field grade officer at that) can rationally reject loyalty to the US for what that person considers a higher loyalty ? So, the impetus to find the "real underlying motive", with MAJ Hasan using religion as an external justification as cover for that "motive" ?

In listening to that argument, I think of the SovComs finding that executions and gulagings were not the best way to handle dissidents. They eventually felt that mental hospitals were the better way - given the wonders of the Soviet system, anyone rejecting those wonders had to be insane. That in the end did not change the reality that their dissidents were not nutjobs.

We have had much higher ranking traitors than MAJ Hasan - e.g., Alger Hiss in the US; Kim Philby in the UK. Between them, they killed more people (albeit indirectly) than did MAJ Hasan.

Maybe the CID and FBI investigations will prove that he was a nutjob. If so, then we will be looking at the UCMJ provisions governing mental capacity. BTW: UCMJ has exclusive jurisdiction.

Let's see where the facts lead us.

And, another BTW: no legal justification should exist for the murders - except for classic legal insanity (e.g., he thought he was shooting Martian invaders).

---------------------------
[*] This exact situation came up at K.I. Sawyer during the Vietnam War - refusal by an INCONUS officer to deploy to Vietnam.

[slapout9]

if he wanted out of the Army, was simply to refuse the deployment order; at which point he would be charged under the UCMJ for refusal of a lawful order and the process would have gone from there - probably ending up in some sort of compromise plea bargain[*]. In any event, no killings.

Why didn't the attorney he hired to advise him tell him that? jmm call some of your lawyer buddies and find out what happened. This part of the case really interest me, although details are sketchy from that point on a lot of the major events started happening.

[Schmedlap]

if he wanted out of the Army, was simply to refuse the deployment order; at which point he would be charged under the UCMJ for refusal of a lawful order and the process would have gone from there - probably ending up in some sort of compromise plea bargain[*]. In any event, no killings.

Why didn't the attorney he hired to advise him tell him that? jmm call some of your lawyer buddies and find out what happened. This part of the case really interest me, although details are sketchy from that point on a lot of the major events started happening.

I don't think that a lawyer can advise his client to deliberately break the law.

[slapout9]

Secret Service Manual for Threat Assessment Investigations read and you will see a lot of similarities to the Ft. Hood Shooting. To me it is the bible and during my LE career I had cause to interact with some of the folks that wrote it and they are grade A just like the material. SWC own Randy Borum was/is one of them. Randy where you at man?


http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/170612.pdf

[jmm99]

from Schmedlap
I don't think that a lawyer can advise his client to deliberately break the law.

but, a lawyer can advise his client not only of the legal option (here obey the order), but also the maximum consequences, the minimum consequences and the probable consequences of not taking the legal option. It's up to the client to make his choice - call me (the lawyer) after you make your decision.

I have no idea of who represented MAJ Hasan and am not inclined to find out by calling some of my "lawyer buddies" or anyone else. That lawyer is not likely to say what he did or did not advise his client.

Going to the guts of the matter, a claim of CO status could also have been made based on his religious belief that non-Muslim forces should not place a foot down in Muslim lands - lots of Sharia authority for that. And, that would be a good time to advise the client of the consequences of refusing the order if the CO defense failed.

Guys, MAJ Hasan's classmate on Anderson Cooper (CNN 360, a few hours ago) told of Hasan's powerpoint presentations about Islamic doctrine, etc., in classes having nothing to do with Islam. I'm curious whether they found the AQ Reader among his possessions. Anyway, this guy's extreme Salafist views were not something recent but go back to Walter Reed classes. I expect that like statements are going to multiply as more and more people take their 15 minutes at the mic.

[Entropy]

I heard the term "friendly fire" used on the radio. I think it was referring to the possibility that the police officer's hail of bullets could have struck individuals other than the shooter. Unfortunate, if true, but excusable.

Must be very difficult to tell who is who with everyone, including the shooter, in the same uniform.

[Greyhawk]

Caption: A first responder to a lone gunman's attack at Fort Hood Nov. 5 renders honors at retreat after aiding his fellow soldiers. U.S. Army photo.

[M Davis]

Caption: A first responder to a lone gunman's attack at Fort Hood Nov. 5 renders honors at retreat after aiding his fellow soldiers. U.S. Army photo.

That's my medic from my last deployment. I talked to him yesterday. He pulled 3 casualties out under fire. Not the first time he's put his life on the line. He's an outstanding medic and an outstanding soldier. Questionable taste in music.

[slapout9]

Must be very difficult to tell who is who with everyone, including the shooter, in the same uniform.

Maybe a lot more to this. I just watched Anderson Cooper do a telephone interview with a Sgt. Todd of the Ft. Hood PD who also responded with Sgt. Munley, he also stated he engaged the suspect with his service weapon and saw the suspect go down and then advanced to the suspect and made sure he was no longer a threat. Who's bullets from who's weapon actually hit the suspect is still to be determined.


Also saw a press conference at FT. Hood where an Army Colonel reported that the suspect fired over 100 rounds.

[Ops-n-Intel]

I do not agree poor marksmanship is excusable.

There is a widely accepted practice of limited and sporadic live-fire and situational training for law enforcement.

To volunteer for a profession where it is known there is a high probability of returning fire in close proximity to civilians brings with it the obligation (both of the department and of the officers) to train and prepare for it.

[Ops-n-Intel]

I do not agree poor marksmanship is excusable.

There is a widely accepted practice of limited and sporadic live-fire and situational training for law enforcement.

To volunteer for a profession where it is known there is a high probability of returning fire in close proximity to civilians brings with it the obligation (both of the department and of the officers) to train and prepare for it.

This is Sgt Todd's account (officer with Sgt Munley) of the incident:

http://www.policeone.com/active-shoo...-Hood-shooter/