Spontaneous Jihad Syndrome

[omarali50]

Tukhachevskii,

I will have to reply in more detail as soon as I get some time, but I will try some general points:

1. I dont really accept the view that Islam is a uniquely self-contained religion. It developed and grew and many different individuals added to it and used what had been added before in creatively new ways (a lot of its is borrowed from earlier religions). And its theology is just one aspect of society. Basic biology, psychology, money, sex and a thousand other things are still operating after some population becomes Muslim. That obviously puts me at some distance from a particular version of Islamic orthodoxy, but interestingly enough, it also puts me at some distance from some of the most determined critics of Islamic orthodoxy. But I can only say whatever seems to make sense to me...I dont see most conflict in the world as religious. I dont even see the world through primarily religious eyes.

2. I do agree with you that there is nothing inherently peaceful about Islamic history and ideology. In fact, it developed as a warlike ideology, suited for a fairly warlike expanding empire. But even Sparta must have had its peaceniks and hippies (keeping a discreetly low profile?) and the bigger the group grows, the more diverse it is bound to become. At some point, the distinction between the expansive, warlike and proselytizing Arab empire and the expansive, warlike and Proselytizing empire of Charlemagne can become harder and harder to define on "Christian vs Islamic" grounds. And there is always the fact that history may be mostly about the emperors and armies, but there were always other things going on. Seeing that Karen Armstrong is a hopelessly naive observer does not guarantee that someone else's apparently clear-eyed unsentimental vision is not subject to its own errors and omissions.

Maybe I am more optimistic than you are. My problem with some Islamophobes (not you, I dont know you that well) is that they seem to suffer from "fatwa-envy" more than they suffer from "fatwa-phobia". At times, it seems their main complaint is that Christians are not as intolerant and warlike and bloodthirsty as Muslims! You may not believe me, but keep an open mind, you will see some examples....

3. I agree that some of my arguments seem (are?) contradictory and hard to follow. Some contradictions get resolved after we get further in the discussion. Some are real. Reality, as Paul Feyerabend pointed out, is a rather mysterious substance, of unknown properties, partly yielding and partly resisting our efforts to know it. I am not trying to be fashionably dense. Some of it IS confusing. But we can still agree on many lower order facts. As you go deeper, it gets harder.

[Tukhachevskii]

1. I dont really accept the view that Islam is a uniquely self-contained religion. It developed and grew and many different individuals added to it and used what had been added before in creatively new ways (a lot of its is borrowed from earlier religions). And its theology is just one aspect of society. I dont see most conflict in the world as religious. I dont even see the world through primarily religious eyes.

2. I do agree with you that there is nothing inherently peaceful about Islamic history and ideology. In fact, it developed as a warlike ideology, suited for a fairly warlike expanding empire. But even Sparta must have had its peaceniks and hippies (keeping a discreetly low profile?) and the bigger the group grows, the more diverse it is bound to become. At some point, the distinction between the expansive, warlike and proselytizing Arab empire and the expansive, warlike and Proselytizing empire of Charlemagne can become harder and harder to define on "Christian vs Islamic" grounds.

Maybe I am more optimistic than you are. My problem with some Islamophobes (not you, I dont know you that well) is that they seem to suffer from "fatwa-envy" more than they suffer from "fatwa-phobia". At times, it seems their main complaint is that Christians are not as intolerant and warlike and bloodthirsty as Muslims! You may not believe me, but keep an open mind, you will see some examples....

3. I agree that some of my arguments seem (are?) contradictory and hard to follow. Some contradictions get resolved after we get further in the discussion. Some are real. Reality, as Paul Feyerabend pointed out, is a rather mysterious substance, of unknown properties, partly yielding and partly resisting our efforts to know it.

I am not trying to be fashionably dense. Some of it IS confusing. But we can still agree on many lower order facts. As you go deeper, it gets harder.

Omarali50, it's good we are not being fashionably dense but neither are we afraid of actually discussing the issues without become chest beaters.

With regards to 1) I would agree that Islam is not a self-contained monad sealed off from the world. But the generative grammer or deep structure of Islam (i.e., its basic tenets and practices) exert strong homeostatic effects that impart a centripetal force upon its components that prevent rearticulation into novel mutations (as it were). All such formations are IMO open systems but that doesn't mean they are as amenable or open to change. Systems have hierarchic and system stablising elements that are necessary to their survival. In Islam these are stronger than in most systems. Unlike Christianity, whose central traditions, practices, and even texts are open to criticism and have led to a number of major evolutionary trajectorites (Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, etc). Islam, by its own rules of formation, prevents innovation in its base code (the differing Madhabs/Schools of Thought do not rearticulate Islam but emphasise some areas more than others. No Madhab has ever, to my knowledge, claimed that anything written in the Quran, Shari'a or Hadeeth is wrong or invalid. Interpretation is quite another matter altogether; they all accept the religious duty of Jihad while differing on the circumstances that warrant it). That said, I agree with you that religion is not the grundnorm generating conflict in the entire world but rather where Islam has made its stamp the religion (although it is actually rather more than just a religion) will have a large role to play (just how large will, of course, depend upon numerous factors as you quite rightly point out).

With regards to 2) and following on from my comments above there is nothing inherently warlike in Chrisitianity (given the fluidity of its central tenets this is to be expected) unlike Islam which explicitly turns war-making into a religious virtue. Charlemagne may not be a good example in that he began his emperial project just before being baptised. Furthermore, Charlemagne's imperial expansion was as much of a result of Islamic conquest, and thus reflexive/defensive (remember the battle of poitiers) as it was determined by his religion. As for the Spartans there political culture was a nationalistic fringe of Helenistic civilisation (i.e., certain of its norms were over-accentuated to fit their particular needs). Greek civilisation, despite what later Europeans may have thought, was never universal in the sense of all encompassing geogrpahically/globally but was specific to Greeks/Hellenes. Islam was the opposite in positing the entire world as the dominion of Allah and his slaves. And lets not forget, the normative injuction in Catholicism demanding the separation of state (temporal power) and church (spiritual power) often led to conflict between the two over imperial expansion and the treatment of foreign peoples (there was, of course, collusion too). Catholics could also hold extremist views such as ultramontanism.

I am not so fatwwa-centric as my previous post may have suggested; it was merely meant to have been a "witty" (snide, is perhaps more appropriate) comment on something you said with regards to the different between medieval/modern Islam. Yes, Feyerabend has a lot to tell us (more so that Popper). Nonetheless I look forward to our continued discussion.