TRADOC Losing Its Edge?

[Ken White]

...at some point the Army and TRADOC have to decide what the proper mix should be for school instruction when it comes to high-intensity conventional warfare as opposed to unconventional fighting...

You cannot 'mix' instruction for combat, all that does is confuse people and leave important things off the POI. We simply have to train people for combat in their MOS during institutional training -- that means a much more thorough grounding (and yes, more expensive and longer) in the basics of soldiering -- and units then have to provide the tailored approach for the specific mission set. This is not rocket science; we used to do it and did it fairly well until we lost our way during Viet Nam.

[Pete]

I don't see the Army as having lost its approach to training during or after Vietnam. The schools I went to during my service from 1977 to 1984 taught standard combined arms with an emphasis on armor and mechanized infantry. The airborne and air assault guys emphasized their own operational techniques. Those were the days when Bill DePuy and Don Starry ran TRADOC, the active defense and all that. With unconventional wars being our most likely challenge during the next several decades, I'm trying to understand how we should go about maintaining our core competencies in combined arms while we're simultaneously facing unconventional adversaries.

[Ken White]

I don't see the Army as having lost its approach to training during or after Vietnam.

Did you serve in it before Viet Nam? After VN, we dumbed down training to cope with McNamara's Project 100,000 intake with the task condition and standard foolishness; and even though those losers are long gone and we have some sharp troops, we're still using that flawed training model. We also concentrated solely on fighting a major land war in Europe to the exclusion of other theaters and other levels of combat. Absolutely foolish. I'm thoroughly familiar with both DePuy and Starry and am not a fan of either. The only saving grace in that period was Shy Meyer as Chief of Staff. He had great plans for the training arena but TRADOC just waited him out; the bureaucracy won.

...the active defense and all that.

Ah, yes -- with Battle Books. Any tactical evolution that requires a three ring binder to execute will get you killed. Quickly.

With unconventional wars being our most likely challenge during the next several decades...

Why is that so? They will only be if we allow that to happen. I guess we could be dumb enough to play by the other guys rules; we certainly have before -- but that doesn't seem very smart to me. I think we should make them play by our rules...

I'm trying to understand how we should go about maintaining our core competencies in combined arms while we're simultaneously facing unconventional adversaries.

First, we aren't all that competent at the core -- never have been in peacetime -- not allowed to do that in a democracy, the mothers get upset at training casualties and Congress gets upset at spending training money instead of equipment money which provide more jobs.

Second, core competency for an Army is basic simple warfighting, it is not difficult. We now half train people and hope for the best. That is not a good plan. If individuals can do the basics well, they can easily and quickly adapt to any level on the spectrum of warfare with decent leadership. We understood how to do what you're trying to understand in the late 50s and early 60s. We just forgot and then got really dumb post VN in an effort to avoid another war like that -- then we wandered into two more.

The key thing to remember is that if you deploy general purpose forces to a Foreign Internal Development (FID) or security Force Assistance (SFA) effort as in Iraq and Afghanistan, it will not be done well -- you're using a sledge hammer to build a piece of cabinetry...

[Pete]

I remember when someone lost a Battle Book in Germany in around 1979 by leaving it on the canvas roof of a jeep during a terrain walk. It wasn't my battalion that did it but if I recall correctly the incident was even in Stars and Stripes. I think 3rd Armored had to re-do all their plans for the first few days of WW III.

Merry Christmas. I wish we could send you some of the snow we have around here in the Martinsburg, WV-Winchester, VA area. There was a Union Signal Corps observation station 1000 yards from here in 1864 to watch the Valley Pike, now U.S. Route 11. On a clear day Winchester could be seen with telescopes.

[slapout9]

I don't see the Army as having lost its approach to training during or after Vietnam. The schools I went to during my service from 1977 to 1984 taught standard combined arms with an emphasis on armor and mechanized infantry. The airborne and air assault guys emphasized their own operational techniques.

I served from 72-75 and yes they (Army) got lost in the wilderness. Around late 73 the Army started losing highly experienced NCO's in a big way. When the Sergeants start voting with their feet....... you is in big trouble. Vietnam darn near destroyed the Army IMO.

[Pete]

Around late 73 the Army started losing highly experienced NCO's in a big way. When the Sergeants start voting with their feet....... you is in big trouble.

The year 1965 was when the last of the WWII veterans hit the big two-zero year mark.

[slapout9]

The year 1965 was when the last of the WWII veterans hit the big two-zero year mark.

I wasn't talking about WW2 vets, I was talking about Vietnam vets.

[slapout9]

If you want to know how bad it was go to the link below. The comic book called "Dopin Dan" was about some hippie in the 82nd Division, I had this edition in my wall locker. It was part of what was known as the Underground Press back then. The comic book was all over Ft. Bragg and it was nothing but Communist Propaganda and subversion. Crap like that was all over Fayetteville and drifted onto Bragg. I got mine mine for free but if you don't mind spending a few bucks it it a Propaganda masterpiece and the guy that wrote it new a lot of things about the 82nd SOP's that should not have been published but they were. Ken is right the Army went into the Twilight Zone for awhile,might end up back there if they are not careful.

http://www.newkadia.com/?Dopin_Dan_C...oks=1111122415

[Pete]

That sort of thing was over with when I enlisted. What we had were lots of foot-dragging attitudes, guys yelling "short" all the time, and racial resentment simmering beneath the surface.