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Thread: Haiti (Catch all)

  1. #21
    Council Member Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
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    There are a slew of orgs raising money to save lives, but who is trying to save their souls?
    Last edited by Beelzebubalicious; 01-15-2010 at 06:41 PM. Reason: iPhone keeps correcting my spelling. Slew of kegs wasn't what I was going after

  2. #22
    Council Member marct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by graphei View Post
    In terms of drumming up money from like-minded Christians, it didn't ring that way to my ears. It could be interpreted as a veiled threat. Why would a devout Christian send money to people who work for the Devil- disaster or otherwise? Pray for their souls- yep. Money and goods? I'll have to do some digging.
    Could be. I'd love to see what actual percentage of any money raised actually gets to people who need it. Give the good doctors involvement, my money would lie on the "less than the bad old days at UNICEF" level (i.e. <12%). Then again, I really, REALLY, dislike the televangelist crowd !
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by marct View Post
    Then again, I really, REALLY, dislike the televangelist crowd !
    You and most Christians, too.

  4. #24
    Council Member Danny's Avatar
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    Default Strange discussion ...

    For this discussion board, but I'll play along too since someone else started this.

    As for dear Pat, he isn't senile and his views make perfect sense within the context of his overall theology and worldview. His theology embraces one of continuing revelation instead of a closed revelation, so in other words, through feelings, dreams, visions, unction or whatever, he can have a direct pipeline into the mind of God. Most Assembly of God, Pentecostal, Wesleyan and other so-called "holiness" churches are the same in their belief system.

    I am a Christian and happen to vehemently disagree on not only theological but logical grounds (i.e., tests of consistency). It's a long story, could go into it much later via e-mail if anyone wishes. Long and short of it, the problem with Pat's view isn't that it is wrong, which it is. The problem is that it falls within the context of his world view, and that is the larger problem.

    The rain falls on the just and the unjust. 'Nuff said on that.

    As for the nature of religious belief, good grief! Really? For a discussion board? Really? Start with the study of epistemology, go to ontology and cosmology, and end with theology and soteriology and ethics.

    I've had seminary training, but unless there are some Chaplains who frequent this board, I doubt many here have. This is a bridge too far for a discussion thread.

    Just chuckle at Pat and wish the Marines well in Haiti. Pat no more knows that God caused this as a result of their wickedness than Danny Glover knows that it occurred as a result of global warming (and no, I'm an unbeliever in that).

    Regards,

    HPS

  5. #25
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Default Katrina-Haiti

    Anderson Cooper of CNN just interviewed General Honere' (spellin) of Katrina fame and he was not to pleased with situation. Among his responses were... drop the rest of the 82nd tomorrow morning and get this problem fixed! Have the local population start clearing landing pads for helicopters so they can set up water and food distribution points. Don't be afraid of the people they just want help. Another reporter said people are dying because of stupidity wasn't exactly sure what he meant but it appears that the roads are passable and have a fair amount of traffic on them but nothing is being distributed or at least very little. Zenpundit has aksed the question will Haiti be President Obama's Katrina?We will see.

  6. #26
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    Default Honore

    Right. All the mumbo jumbo aside, this is a basic humanitarian crisis/disaster recovery operation, and the President will be measured by it, although, being a country far, far away, (read: Not America) he may get some latitude.

    First underway, and foremost has been Honore, then DoD. Only DoD can plan, muster, resource and deliver the immediate response. (That is the underlying weak spot in all this "whole-of-government" thing). No other agencies have the resources and firepower.

    Behind the scenes, a report in the Post indicated that the new US AID Director has been the substantive civilian in charge, and, based on prior experience, is apparently pretty good at it. (A reprieve for USAID's future). But they lack actual experts and staffing---just longer-range contract responses at the moment.

    State first came out with an order for US citizens to get to the airport for flights home, then rescinded that for "shelter in place." Other than stumbling around, they don't seem to have their act together, or any relevant juice or resources.

    I would have been happy to jump on a plane the first day, but like Honore indicated, the infrastructure and supporting framework isn't in place yet. Just another mouth to feed, and one without a backhoe or jack hammer (what's needed now). I can operate one, but I can't carry one across the pond.

    The thought of seeing an injured loved one inches away, but separated by chunks of concrete, and what do you have to break through? Maybe a hammer< but probably just another hunk of concrete (futile).

    As for the religion thing. What would Jesus do? Get a backhoe or jack hammer and go and try to rescue people!!!!

    Behind the scenes, we already see the drones being diverted from Afghanistan to help. Great for Haiti, but, obviously, we now have another diversion of attention, leadership, resources (not a good thing).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve the Planner View Post
    I would have been happy to jump on a plane the first day, but like Honore indicated, the infrastructure and supporting framework isn't in place yet. Just another mouth to feed, and one without a backhoe or jack hammer (what's needed now). I can operate one, but I can't carry one across the pond.
    I spent hours searching the internet for any organization that was going to Haiti that I could tag along with. I am not a doctor, or a search and rescue specialist, nor do I have any experience in massive humanitarian disasters. What I am is able-bodied, a self-starter, someone who takes charge, willing to go, and adaptive. There were no slots for someone with those attributes.

  8. #28
    Council Member Stan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmedlap View Post
    I spent hours searching the internet for any organization that was going to Haiti that I could tag along with. I am not a doctor, or a search and rescue specialist, nor do I have any experience in massive humanitarian disasters. What I am is able-bodied, a self-starter, someone who takes charge, willing to go, and adaptive. There were no slots for someone with those attributes.
    As weird as this sounds (one would think a physically fit volunteer would be able to lift sierra, drive trucks, etc.), most of the aid agencies demand at least 10-years experience and previous overseas assignments for disaster relief volunteers. They justify these requirements because they are responsible for the volunteer's well-being (food, shelter, health and security) and will even go as far as saying you're more of a burden than assistance

    The Estonian Disaster Relief Team (EDRT) under international law certifies that all her members meet the very same criteria. EDRT EOD Techs are required to speak a foreign language and possess at least 2 overseas tours in addition to the minimum 10-year rule.

    Begs the question - how to get those two tours and obtain the disaster groupie team "pledge pin" if nobody will let you start

    Yes, I have the pledge pin and shoulder patch too (Little did Tom know, by sending me into real sierra holes in the 90s I would by default possess the 2-tour requirement)
    If you want to blend in, take the bus

  9. #29
    Council Member Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
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    What we need is a civilian disaster response corps. If we start now, they should be ready for disasters in 2020. They could float around on modified cruise ships ready to sail when needed (after a short period of sobering up) one in each region or sea. We'd have another set in blimps and do on.....

  10. #30
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubalicious View Post
    What we need is a civilian disaster response corps. If we start now, they should be ready for disasters in 2020. They could float around on modified cruise ships ready to sail when needed (after a short period of sobering up) one in each region or sea. We'd have another set in blimps and do on.....
    You know with a little thought that ain't a half bad idea.....especially Blimps and Cruise Ships. Kinda like the old Buckminster Fuller Thinking. He said the best way to rebuild a broken city was to move the population offshore then go rebuild the city and then send them back to it.

    Link to floating city.
    http://www.buckminster.info/Index/T/Triton.htm
    Last edited by slapout9; 01-16-2010 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Link

  11. #31
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    Certainly a terrible, terrible catastrophe. To throw such a deeply offensive "stone" is to say the very least shameful. I completely agree with Danny.

    Other than that it shows just how little it takes, especially in third world countries with very limited access to cause a catastrophe of such a magnitude. So many dead, so many wounded, so many needing the most basic of things. And how difficult it is to deliver it under such circumstances.


    Firn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebubalicious View Post
    They could float around on modified cruise ships...
    A floating Green Zone!

  13. #33
    Council Member Beelzebubalicious's Avatar
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    Just what we need, more separation from boots and the ground. To tell you the truth, it might not make much of a difference to some.

  14. #34
    Council Member Brett Patron's Avatar
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    Question

    Just wondering....if you cite Satan as having subsumed a country beset with so much poverty, misery and general deprivation, is it "too big to fail"?

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    The humanitarian effort for Haiti is now being waged by major global powers, NGOs, charities, and it seems that just about every church, school, and other organization on the planet is doing what they can to pitch in.

    If Haiti really did make a pact with the devil, then it seems that the devil is now getting kicked squarely in the nuts.

  16. #36
    Council Member Danny's Avatar
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    Default Ways to Haiti

    Schemdlap,

    I don't know any more than the next guy, but I would try the Red Cross or Samaritan's Purse (Franklin Graham of the Billy Graham organization). They are usually at the front of such efforts, and have already been to Haiti. It's just a matter of how many aircraft, vehicles, people and supplies can be gotten into one airport.

    It all comes down to logistics. Oh how I love to point that out! Logistics, logistics, logistics. A land locked Afghanistan, or Haiti. The logisticians tell everyone else what to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny View Post
    I don't know any more than the next guy, but I would try the Red Cross or Samaritan's Purse (Franklin Graham of the Billy Graham organization).
    Already done it.

  18. #38
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    Default multilateral humanitarian operations in Haiti

    We don't really have much of a thread for serious discussion of current multilateral humanitarian operations in Haiti, so I thought I would start one. (Moderators may want to move it to the "Americas" section, although it isn't really conflict-related.)

    In addition to media coverage, UN OCHA's Reliefweb is an outstanding source of current information, updates, and regularly updated maps of operations.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  19. #39
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    Default UN OCHA Haiti sitrep

    United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs

    Haiti • Earthquake
    Situation Report #5
    16 January 2010

    HIGHLIGHTS/KEY PRIORITIES

    • Fuel for humanitarian operations will only last 2 to 3 more days before operations will be forced to
    cease. A fuel distribution mechanism is required urgently.
    • 27 Urban Search and Rescue teams are deployed across priority locations with approximately
    1,500 rescue workers and 115 dogs. There have been 58 live rescues so far by these teams.
    • A joint UNDAC/EU/WFP assessment found 80-90 percent of the buildings destroyed in Leogane
    and 40-50 percent in Carrefour and Gressier.
    • Priorities for assistance continue to be search and rescue, medical services, shelter, food and
    water.
    • IOM estimates that 200,000 families (up to one million people) are in need of immediate shelter and
    non-food assistance.
    • Major health concerns include untreated trauma wounds and infection of wounds.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  20. #40
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    Default security and aid distribution

    UK Channel 4 has a good short video report on the security challenges of delivering assistance (first video on the page).

    Also, from DoD:

    Security Role in Haiti to Gain Prominence, Keen Says

    By John J. Kruzel
    American Forces Press Service

    WASHINGTON, Jan. 17, 2010 – The security side of U.S. humanitarian relief operations in Haiti will take on a larger role as violence increases in the aftermath of the magnitude 7 earthquake that struck five days ago, the top U.S. commander in Haiti said today. Video

    In the midst of the massive international relief effort there, Army Lt. Gen. P.K. Keen said some incidents of violence have impeded the U.S. military’s ability to support the government of Haiti.
    “Our principal mission [is] humanitarian assistance, but the security component is going to be an increasing part of that,” he said today on ABC’s This Week. “And we're going to have to address that along with the United Nations, and we are going to have to do it quickly.”
    Keen said they would monitor closely the "increasing incidents of violence."
    "We do need, obviously, a safe and secure environment to continue and do the best we can with the humanitarian assistance," he said on Fox News.
    and, from the National Post:

    Security crucial in Haiti aid effort
    Sheldon Alberts, Canwest News Service
    Published: Friday, January 15, 2010

    WASHINGTON -- A U.S. army brigade of 3,500 soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division will join more than 2,200 U.S. Marines in Haiti by week's end as worries mount over the potential for post-earthquake unrest in a nation long beset by violence, drug crime and gang warfare.

    The deployment ordered by Barack Obama, the U.S. President, is the U.S. military's largest to the Caribbean nation since September 1994, when several thousand Marines landed in Port-au-Prince to return exiled president Jean-Bertrand Aristide to power.

    But even as the Pentagon rushes to meet urgent security and humanitarian needs, leaders from the United States and other Western nations, including Canada, are grappling with a bigger question: Will the massive international response to the earthquake mark the start of a long-term commitment to prevent Haiti from sliding once again into crime-ridden chaos?

    "All of the effort is in saving lives right now and that's as it should be. But even while you have all your attention into saving lives, you've got to be planning for a much larger security apparatus for weeks and months to come," said Kara McDonald, a Haiti expert with the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


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