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Thread: Aviation in COIN (merged thread)

  1. #101
    Council Member Cavguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Cavguy made some very interesting comments about what a CAS aircraft needs in another thread. He mentioned guns and JDAMs (preferably 250 lb).
    He also noted the tactical value of having a loud jet buzz the enemy at low altitude, a "show of force."
    One misconception I had about air dropped bombs was the damage - the JDAM can be set with a delay fuse that causes an implosion rather than explosion effect. The building collapsed in on itself rather than spewing debris to the neigboring structures. The low explosive weight bombs and GPS guided artillery are to the point where even single rooms/floors can be engaged rather than the building.

    Again, I'm not suggesting going willy-nilly with CAS and artillery in COIN - far from it. It should be a rare option. People just need to realize that dropping a GPS guided bomb or artillery round on a target doesn't cause mass collateral damage outside of the target area - most of the negative collateral damage received in the press comes from rounds that hit where they were supposed to - the insurgent was hiding and fighting coalition from within a residential structure.
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  2. #102
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Carl, pinoyme, 120mm, et al.

    I'm exploring the issues around a COIN aircraft in greater depth, and I need some help getting my brain around the issue of a turbo prop vs. piston powerplant.

    Specifically, what are the differences and why do they matter (in terms of thrust-to-weight, cost, exhaust, etc.). If you could offer links to a "Turbo props for Dummies" page of sorts, it would be helpful.
    Last edited by jcustis; 08-18-2007 at 08:07 PM.

  3. #103
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    https://www.chevrontexaco.com/produc...s/chapter6.pdf

    the above for turbine engines

    https://www.chevrontexaco.com/produc.../chapter12.pdf

    the above for piston engines

    The big difference is a piston engine of 1000 hp will weigh much more than a turboprop engine of 1000 hp, which is why most all prop airplanes that need a lot of horsepower use turboprop engines.

    Another disadvantage of aero piston engines is they require avgas which can be very difficult to get in many parts of the world.

    Finally, (120 mm would know more about this than I), I think there is only 1 piston engine of around 1000 hp in production in the world. It is made in Poland.

  4. #104
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    ALCON,

    I've recently read a 2005 article written for the Air Command and Staff College Air University by Maj A. D. Davis, titled "Back to the Basics - An Aviation Solution to Counterinsurgent Warfare" http://www.excaliburrd.com/docs/AT-6...ckToBasics.pdf. It can be found here http://www.excaliburrd.com/projects/...dex.aspx#LINKS which is a page on the Excalibur R&D website.

    While I do not believe Maj Davis successfully argued his point about a COIN aircraft via the case studies (e.g. he highlights the A-10's slowness and susceptibility to ground fire as a negative in the Iraq AO, but only makes one supporting statement regarding exhaust IR signature while never really convincing the reader on prop benefits), the article discussed the prospective use of an upgraded T-6 Texan II or similar A/C as a good COIN candidate.

    In the aft section of the paper, the discussion of A/C desired capabilities left me with several RFIs that I hope members might be able to help with. I'll space them out for easy copy/pasting:

    -The oft-mentioned data-link capability could mean many things. In airpower parlance, what is it most likely to mean? Air-to-ground video capability? Blue Force Tracker satellite connections?

    -Maj Davis lists speed and maneuverability at low altitudes as a desirable attribute. Could this actually make an A/C more difficult to fly, and thus train up on if you are an indigenous pilot in the fledgling air force? I know thereare no absolutes, but I've read of many very capable planes that were very difficult to actually get off the ground and land.

    -Davis pushes off-the-shelf technology. I can't tell if he means technology that is already in use and militarized, or mostly commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) technology. If he is means the latter, it has been my experience that COTS gear often increases your logistical burden as sole source suppliers go out of business, components become passe, etc. As supporting the equipment becomes more difficult, that particular line of equipment often requires re-hosting to newer components just to stay operational and effective. Has anyone else had similar experiences?

    -Low-cost is a big theme throughout the article, but I sense that stressing cost over capability would leave a COIN A/C proposal trashed by the UCAV proponents every time. I mean, why not spend a little more to incorporate some stealth technologies and get serious about reducing the SAM threat to manageable levels? What say yea?

    Thanks in advance for any insight members chose to offer.

    P.S. The chevron articles helped out a lot carl, thanks.

  5. #105
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    -Maj Davis lists speed and maneuverability at low altitudes as a desirable attribute. Could this actually make an A/C more difficult to fly, and thus train up on if you are an indigenous pilot in the fledgling air force? I know thereare no absolutes, but I've read of many very capable planes that were very difficult to actually get off the ground and land.
    There is no reason at all that a properly designed high performance airplane should not also be relatively easy to fly. Two good examples of this were the Fokker D-VII and the Zero, both very potent aircraft that were easy to handle.

    During the 50's the quest for pure performance led to a fair number of airplanes being fielded that were hard to handle. But that was the result of intentional design compromise. The MiG-17 was designed in the 50's also and I've read it was a very nice handling airplane that gave higher performance airplanes fits in VN.

    The modern jets have superb performance and they are much easier to fly than the generation of planes they replaced. In the early 80's some test pilot school students told me they could put me in an F-15, give me a cockpit brief and I could get the plane around the patch without killing myself. They also said that would be impossible in a F-4.

    I was very unimpressed by that paper. He got a lot of easily checked details wrong which makes me question the whole thing.

  6. #106
    Moderator Steve Blair's Avatar
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    Davis would push speed because that's an AF mantra. It also flies in the face of most other studies, which concluded that speed is actually a detriment for CAS as it makes conventional bomb accuracy difficult. Granted, with PGMs that's not as much an issue today, but speed also reduces loiter time and the ability to identify targets. You also tend to lose payload for speed, which isn't a good thing for this sort of aircraft, either.
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  7. #107
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    Blackwater buys Brazilian Bombers
    Janes - Blackwater seeks to acquire Super Tucano Possibly Subscription-only
    US private security company Blackwater USA is planning to enhance its capabilities with the acquisition of an Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano trainer/light attack aircraft.

    Blackwater President Gary Jackson confirmed to Jane's at the Force Protection Equipment Demonstration in Stafford, Virginia, in mid-August that the company is in the process of acquiring the Super Tucano for a new training programme. Transfer of the aircraft to the US is still subject to US government approval and Blackwater would offer no further comment on the transaction or the planned training programme.

    ...

    The company operates a sizeable aircraft wing. In Iraq, it operates a small fleet of helicopters to provide top cover for its security details; two Hughes/MD 500 'Little Bird' helicopters operated by the company were lost to hostile fire earlier this year. The company also advertises CASA 212 twin turboprops for military freefall and static-line parachute operations, as well as cargo operations for US Special Operations Command. The Moyock centre boasts a large airfield.

    Prospective acquisition of the Super Tucano by Blackwater comes amid rising interest in counter-insurgency-style aircraft, particularly in the Middle East. Fixed-wing aircraft such as the Super Tucano are seen as a promising option for missions such as surveillance, roadside-bomb detection and close air support. The US Air Force (USAF) 337th Aeronautical Systems Group is currently conducting market research to find potential candidates for a counter-insurgency aircraft for the Iraqi Air Force (IQAF). The COIN aircraft would be a "lightly armoured, two-seat turboprop" that can track, identify and engage a number of targets with electro-optical and infrared sensors as well as with air-to-ground weapons.

    Last year, the USAF launched a search for private companies that could provide basic flight training to IQAF candidate pilots.

    A defence expert with inside knowledge of counter-insurgency aviation programmes said "several companies" were trying to replicate the mission of the US 6th Special Operations Squadron, which advises foreign militaries in airpower employment and force design. Climbto350.com, a pilot jobs site, recently posted an advertisement seeking fixed-wing tactical instructor pilots for the Middle East. Applicants, the advertisement stated, "should have a military background with experience in special operations aviation" as well as be NVG qualified and have experience in airborne surveillance and tactical parachute operations. The advertiser did not accept calls, but listed a fax number in the United Arab Emirates (UAE).

    The UAE has been studying a range of options for training aircraft, reportedly including the Super Tucano; the M-311 from Alenia Aermacchi of Italy; and the PC-21 from Pilatus of Switzerland. That contest will be decided towards the end of 2007.

    In addition to rising international interest, the USAF is also studying its own counter-insurgency aircraft. USAF Chief of Staff General Michael Moseley recently told Jane's he was considering the creation of a new counter-insurgency squadron of A-10A Thunderbolt II aircraft for the Air Force Special Operations Command (AFSOC). Gen Moseley's interest in a new A-10 squadron followed recent reports of a new AFSOC proposal for an 'irregular warfare' wing. Aircraft reportedly being studied to fill the strike role in the wing have ranged from a modified air-to-ground Beechcraft AT-6B to the Super Tucano.

    The US military has also recalled to service fixed-wing reconnaissance aircraft such as the OV-1 Mohawk, which was retired from the US Army in 1996. The Department of Defense has contracted with Florida-based Mohawk Technologies of Florida to rent a fleet of six OV-1s. Paul Pefley, the president of Mohawk Technologies, told Jane's the aircraft were currently being used operationally, although he would not say where.
    The article does not indicate what role they'll be used in, but it seems like someone is at least acting on this line of thought.

    Edit: replaced with link and Janes article.
    Last edited by mmx1; 08-27-2007 at 05:34 PM.

  8. #108
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    Default Danger Room - Blackwater Buying Counter-Insurgency Aircraft

    Danger Room - Blackwater Buying Counter-Insurgency Aircraft

    Uh, oh. Blackwater, private security contractor that some people seem to love to hate, is in the market for an attack aircraft, a likely prelude to offering foreign air forces training in counter-insurgency operations. Jane's Defence Weekly reporter Nathan Hodge (and husband of DANGER ROOM contributor) has an exclusive story (sorry, subscription only) on Blackwater's plans to purchase an Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano trainer/light attack aircraft:

    Blackwater President Gary Jackson confirmed to Jane's at the Force Protection Equipment Demonstration in Stafford, Virginia, in mid-August that the company is in the process of acquiring the Super Tucano for a new training programme. Transfer of the aircraft to the US is still subject to US government approval and Blackwater would offer no further comment on the transaction or the planned training programme.

    If the deal goes through, it will give the company a significant boost in a growing international market for fixed-wing tactical flight instruction, as well as a potential platform for counter-insurgency-style training.
    In the actual blog post, Blackwater is first described as a "merc outfit" in strikethrough font. I could not replicate the formatting above so I removed it.
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  9. #109
    Council Member pcmfr's Avatar
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    Nice piece on some planes being considered for the Iraqi AF for COIN.

    http://www.special-operations-techno...cfm?DocID=2137

  10. #110
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    I'm not so critical of the idea of using some sort of training aircraft as a COIN aircraft. The Argentine navy uses Beechcraft T-34 Mentors with guns strapped on as a combat aircraft. Granted, the proud Argentines aren't conducting COIN ops (as far as I know), but it shows that there is a capability inherent in the training aircraft that may be coincident with a combat aircraft.

    Not to mention that there are T-6s currently being flown at Vance AFB and NAS Pensacola, and in some years time there should be T-6s flown out of NAS Whiting and Corpus. Bottom line, it is a cheap, supportable aircraft that probably has the ability to kill (bad guys, not student pilots, that is.

  11. #111
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Anyone in the audience get the impression that these conversations are dominated by one service, as if the USA or USMC can't outline support requirements effectively?

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    Default training aircraft as COIN

    It's not so much that these are all training a/c, it's just that they are relatively cheap, two seat propellor driven a/c that can fly at slower speed than jets, and given current (also relatively cheap) modifications such as NVG's, GPS, and GPS guided munitions, they can be very effective. Also, asking air forces that are trying to stand up like the Iraqi and Afghan AF's, these are a/c that can be operated much easier than high end jets.

  13. #113
    i pwnd ur ooda loop selil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Anyone in the audience get the impression that these conversations are dominated by one service, as if the USA or USMC can't outline support requirements effectively?

    I've gotten that impression for some time... In the Information Technology world we call it the invisible user... Who cares about the people that need this service we can buy cool toys!
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  14. #114
    Council Member jcustis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by selil View Post
    I've gotten that impression for some time... In the Information Technology world we call it the invisible user... Who cares about the people that need this service we can buy cool toys!
    Interesting term. That's sort of how I feel when I am moving along on the Beltway, blinker on, and slowing down to find a gap to make a lane change. Folks seem to think I can't see that they obviously see me, but are just ignoring me in an attempt to box me out!

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Interesting term. That's sort of how I feel when I am moving along on the Beltway, blinker on, and slowing down to find a gap to make a lane change. Folks seem to think I can't see that they obviously see me, but are just ignoring me in an attempt to box me out!
    Nascar driving.. You're moving along at a clip and you get ready to pass somebody and they speed up so you can't get in. Similar move is to drive alongside a truck and slow down so you can't pass. Even better yet you're waiting for the Q-tip in the Crown Victoria to nudge beyond and the guy in the clapped out Civic with a coffee canister pseudo-muffler go's buy on the shoulder.

    The problem with the "invisible user" is solutions have a tendency of not meeting needs. We talk about top down design but it's bottom up requirements gathering. If the user isn't happy the tool/system/application isn't going to work. Only in the case of COIN people are shooting at the user.
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  16. #116
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Still, not really COIN aircraft. Light Attack = Just one small piece of the COIN "pie".

  17. #117
    Council Member 120mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcustis View Post
    Carl posted good points about susceptibility to shoulder-launched projectiles. Mogadishu '93 definitely highlighted the danger of an enemy who employs new TTPs against you with a dated weapons system.

    On the matter of flight profiles for aircraft, I'll share this interesting moment, even though it occured with Kiowa scout a/c, and not a fixed-wing platform. I recently served as an umpire during Exercise Talisman Saber 07, and the Aussies made excellent use of scout helicopters against light armored recon and tank formations. On more than one occasion, a section of Kiowas would fly nap of the earth and identify our elements on the ground.

    On two occasions, once they spotted a cluster of vehicles, they made a direct run overhead and dropped a smoke grenade on the position to mark it for follow-on Cobra or F-18 airstrikes. It's an old Vietnam/Rhodesian tactic, and I have to admit that I had a smile on my face even though I knew I'd be assessing casualties against our side.

    What is notable about all this is the fact that the Kiowa aircraft were difficult to pick up and even track due to the single canopy vegetation. We could get a bead on them for only a short window, and typically when they directly overhead. I'm no SAM guy, but I can hazard a guess that it would be very difficult to achieve a lock with such a short exposure window.

    I'd have to add to my previous list of required capabilities, and in addition to the leaflet pod, a good COIN aircraft would need a smoke projectile pod to designate targets or the center point of a ground contact. Done right, the pod could be configurable to support both leaflets and smoke devices.
    I've served as S2 in a DIV CAV SQDN, and trust me, the Scout Pilots generally don't give a rat's patootie about SAMs. THEY sweat the small caliber AAA, RPGs and especially guys with scoped rifles.

  18. #118
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    Default Cathedral of Ignorance

    Defence of the Realm has a piece up called Cathedral of Ignorance.

    In the print edition of The Sunday Telegraph (but not yet on-line) we are offered an extraordinarily ill-informed letter from a Mr Paddy Keenan, who disputes the claim made by Tory MP Ann Winterton last week that the slower, propeller-driven ground attack versions of the Tucano would help reduce "friendly fire" mistakes...

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I've served as S2 in a DIV CAV SQDN, and trust me, the Scout Pilots generally don't give a rat's patootie about SAMs. THEY sweat the small caliber AAA, RPGs and especially guys with scoped rifles.
    Much like they did in the old days. Have they gone back to older-style VR or is standoff scouting still the order of the day? Sorry for what may be a foolish question, but this stuff doesn't get much coverage and I'm a bit of an old school H-K tactics fan.
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  20. #120
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    Default COIN Aircraft vs. Advanced Reconnaissance Helicopter

    Here's my question about this whole concept. What exactly are the capabilities DoD thinks it's going to get out of say, an AT-6 Texan II or whatever, that it can't get out of the ARH (speaking of which, is that program canceled, on hold, or what)?

    All of the advantages a slow-moving turboprop has over, say, an A-10 or F-16, a good modern scout helicopter (the Kiowa is an old design) would have over that turboprop, right? Loiter time, versatility, hovering and maneuverability capabilties, etc. And the speed of a turboprop wouldn't be that much more in terms of vulnerability to ground fire, would it?

    That is, would that turboprop really be less susceptible to SA-7s or RPGS than the ARH, if the chopper was at full speed?

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding capabilities, but to me the whole program smacks of the Air Force trying to say "we're relevant in COIN! Really! Trust us!"

    Matt
    Last edited by MattC86; 09-17-2007 at 02:11 AM. Reason: Advanced, not armed reconnaissance helicopter. right?
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