Electronic Publications

[OfTheTroops]

Pubs are digitized and so forth but I think accessibility is the next step. How do you get all this whizbang knowledge down to the bright Soldier if they want to read them and sharpshoot the LT. How many squad leaders sit in front of a computer all day or any real part of the day.

[Hacksaw]

Pubs are digitized and so forth but I think accessibility is the next step. How do you get all this whizbang knowledge down to the bright Soldier if they want to read them and sharpshoot the LT. How many squad leaders sit in front of a computer all day or any real part of the day.

A great many more than it seems you suppose... I would opine that far more Soldiers sit at their PC for some period most nights than do those who sit down with FM 3-24.2, and if a young soldier is apt to sit down for quiet evening with a doctrinal manual... he is equally apt to sit at his PC while doing it...

I wouldn't claim that interactive media is the solution to US forces not reading their own doctrine, but I would argue that nearly anyone could sit with the FM 3-24 product and in 3 hrs have a very good idea of the content of the manual, its main principles, and examples as to how it might be operationalized... I won't engage in the debate as to whether 3-24 is a good doctrinal solution (I like it for what it was intended, don't like it for how it is sometimes interpretted - but that's no different than any other piece of doctrine)... only that the accompanying digital training tool was very effective...

Whether anyone on this panel likes this approach or not matters little... this IS the way the Army is heading... it is intended to both improve intellectual access, physical access to the material and also to support distance learning/shortened resident PME instruction...

"Now I'm done" -

[Schmedlap]

Whether anyone on this panel likes this approach or not matters little... this IS the way the Army is heading... it is intended to both improve intellectual access, physical access to the material and also to support distance learning/shortened resident PME instruction...

"Now I'm done" -

Don't stop now!

Do you think greater distance learning and shortened resident instruction is a good thing?

The came to mind because I recently recommended to the dean of my law school that the school re-think its policy on absentee-ism and class participation. Law students are required to attend class. If you miss a few classes you can be dropped from the course, regardless of your performance. Part of the rationale for this is that a profession is more than just learning material in a book and regurgitating it on a test. There is value in interacting with other professionals (in this case, professors) who are more experienced, skilled or knowledgeable than you are on the narrow topic that is being discussed in the class. Two of the problems that I pointed out with our current policies are that 1) they are not enforced and 2) most students are "present" in class but they spend the entire class period on Facebook, rather than paying attention and interacting. Many, if not most, of the highest ranking students (at least at my school) just buy commercial outlines and then, the week before the exam, take ADHD pills and study 20 hours per day to memorize the outlines, and then regurgitate this material on their exam at the end of the semester. Yet every professor scratches his or her head when observing that GPA has no correlation to one's prowess as a lawyer after graduation.

Having attended four undergrad, grad, and law schools and having taken distance learning courses in grad school and heavily abbreviated courses in the Army (40-hour courses that really only include about 28 hours of instruction, with little time for reflection), I've experienced learning in a variety of formats and I see very little value in avoiding classroom interaction and little value in short-term information cramming. The quicker information is learned, the more easily it is forgotten. The less involved the learning process, the more easy it is to think you've learned something when you haven't and the more likely you are to pencil whip and BS your way through an exam that says to the world that you understand the information.

[Hacksaw]

Do you think greater distance learning and shortened resident instruction is a good thing? As always... it depends... for core curriculum stuff that falls into the category of mandatory topics that are universally considered a waste of time... and that lends itself to independent study... distributed works and serves the purpose it was intended

The came to mind because I recently recommended to the dean of my law school that the school re-think its policy on absentee-ism and class participation. Law students are required to attend class. If you miss a few classes you can be dropped from the course, regardless of your performance. Part of the rationale for this is that a profession is more than just learning material in a book and regurgitating it on a test. There is value in interacting with other professionals (in this case, professors) who are more experienced, skilled or knowledgeable than you are on the narrow topic that is being discussed in the class. The rationale clearly makes sense on the surface, but... Two of the problems that I pointed out with our current policies are that 1) they are not enforced and 2) most students are "present" in class but they spend the entire class period on Facebook, rather than paying attention and interacting. Many, if not most, of the highest ranking students (at least at my school) just buy commercial outlines and then, the week before the exam, take ADHD pills and study 20 hours per day to memorize the outlines, and then regurgitate this material on their exam at the end of the semester. Yet every professor scratches his or her head when observing that GPA has no correlation to one's prowess as a lawyer after graduation. Falling into the category of being careful what you measure, you might not get the behavior you intended

Having attended four undergrad, grad, and law schools and having taken distance learning courses in grad school and heavily abbreviated courses in the Army (40-hour courses that really only include about 28 hours of instruction, with little time for reflection), I've experienced learning in a variety of formats and I see very little value in avoiding classroom interaction and little value in short-term information cramming. Well if you put it that way ... and when discussing the finer points of leadership and tactical/operational employment of forces I agree that doing it via distance is less than an engaged discussion between two professionals interested in their profession and prepared for the dialogue... of course this is not so common

The quicker information is learned, the more easily it is forgotten. The less involved the learning process, the more easy it is to think you've learned something when you haven't and the more likely you are to pencil whip and BS your way through an exam that says to the world that you understand the information. But if i can't (for reasons of OPTEMPO and $) afford to maintain long resident courses that allow students adequate time to reflect upon operational experiences and engage in professional banter over a couple Guiness Pints.... Can I at least make the distributed learning experience as rich as possible so that learning is retained... so that unlike the CAS3 box of books... students can see the topic within context and hence have a better chance of applying that concept when it matters... and that is the point... the resident courses (less ILE, SAMS and USAWC have already been shortened)

[Schmedlap]

Hacksaw,

I'm not disagreeing with your response, but I'd just add one thought. Regarding the concern of...

"...if i can't (for reasons of OPTEMPO and $) afford to maintain long resident courses that allow students adequate time to reflect upon operational experiences and engage in professional banter over a couple Guiness Pints...."

I wonder if we've done an accurate cost-benefit analysis of that.

[Hacksaw]

Hacksaw,

I'm not disagreeing with your response, but I'd just add one thought. Regarding the concern of...



I wonder if we've done an accurate cost-benefit analysis of that.

Wow.... fair enough...

(I should caveat that I in no way have a voice or means to influence senior leader thoughts on this matter, but....)

Today it isn't so much a cost benefit assessment as much as a function of physics...

CPTs and NCOs faces to spaces it so tight that the return to PCS LDE is very much a thing of the past for the foreseeable future (ILE and USAWC not withstanding)...

As a product of the Socratic method, and having been blessed by the Army, on multiple occassion, with the opportunity to do cogitate in an academic setting... I am sympathetic to your perspective...

But even TRADOC can't warp the time space continuum...

[Ken White]

I wonder if we've done an accurate cost-benefit analysis of that.

However, I'm totally convinced of its value...

[OfTheTroops]

Distance learning doesnt shrink the time box either. There is talk of making core classes all DL. This seems to place all the burden on the student and little on the institution. In essence they will be able to do more with less. And as drill said if you aint cheatin you aint tryin (just look at correspondence courses). 5 years down the road will this officer be as good as an officer who went to a resident course maybe. One thing that will certainly be lost is the peer relationships and networking that occurs at long residencies and there is a certain value to that. I can see both sides here. I am taking an online masters program and while i dont feel the core education is lost there does seem to be a great lost from the face to face and the non verbal. In fact, SWJ is a great deal like the education received from a DL course. The bureaucracy needs to stop pawning their kids off on the neighbors or grandparents etc. Yes education is an individual responsibility but individuals dont pay the price.

[Hacksaw]

Distance learning doesnt shrink the time box either.

I'd never claim that it does... it shifts the burden to the student... who undoubtedly has precious little time whether deployed or otherwise

There is talk of making core classes all DL. This seems to place all the burden on the student and little on the institution. In essence they will be able to do more with less.

See above... no doubt... still there is a physics to this... if you have an inventory of low 90% faces to fill 100% operational spaces... and if you have some critical none operational jobs you really need a green face to fill... regardless of value of long stretches to build relationships and debate the universal relevance of one's experiences versus another... time in resident courses is a luxury that we probably don't have

And as drill said if you aint cheatin you aint tryin (just look at correspondence courses). 5 years down the road will this officer be as good as an officer who went to a resident course maybe. One thing that will certainly be lost is the peer relationships and networking that occurs at long residencies and there is a certain value to that. I can see both sides here. I am taking an online masters program and while i dont feel the core education is lost there does seem to be a great lost from the face to face and the non verbal. In fact, SWJ is a great deal like the education received from a DL course. The bureaucracy needs to stop pawning their kids off on the neighbors or grandparents etc. Yes education is an individual responsibility but individuals dont pay the price.

I'd only disagree to say that most on this venue communicate in complete thoughts (save perhaps myself) and a degree of decorum is practiced... I can't imagine anyone claiming dL is better, only that we can make it better and mitigate the loss of the face-to-face interaction... a final thought... Last night, I watched my daughter carry on a four way text conversation with four of her teammates that she had just left at the gym... I think there is a level of comfort in this generation of young soldiers that far outpaces ours