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| Law Enforcement The application of law, order, and justice -- here, there, and everywhere / international. |
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#1 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: REMFing it up in DC
Posts: 250
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A quite interesting CFR Backgrounder on the legal doctrine of hot pursuit - originally part of the law of the seas, but now applied by countries seeking to justify cross-border raids. The backgrounder is focused on jihadist infiltration of Iraq over the Syrian border, but apples just as well to the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. It is undoubtedly a thorny legal issue:
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(Additionally, the CFR just put out a report on the Pakistani Tribal Belt that I believed Westhawk referenced the other day, http://www.cfr.org/publication/16763/ ) Given the renewed attention to Afghanistan, and the calls for American troops to work over the border if necessary (as well as the revelation that the Pentagon and White House have restrained SOF commands eager to chase enemies into Pakistan), I think the legal niceties of the situation are irritating and inconvenient, but essential to the future of the US/Pakistan relationship. . . anyway, check it out for yourselves. Regards, Matt
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"Give a good leader very little and he will succeed. Give a mediocrity a great deal and he will fail." - General George C. Marshall |
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#2 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slapout,Al.
Posts: 4,453
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Thanks for posting and it is just another example of how law enforcment concepts are a great aid in the GWOT,Long War or what ever it is being called now.
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#3 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,583
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with some legal and histoirical assertions in the CFR article - e.g., on Villa and Caroline examples - as well as lack of specific references to those "some" who might agree with Max Boot's position.
Also, the domestic law enforcement rules on hot pursuit actually would cut agin allowing hot pursuit in this (international) context. I Law is still in the Bonnie & Clyde stage - Slapout will understand that. Also, there are some practical problems with this very interesting theoretical problem. Right now, I don't have time to say much more. The question, however, may become a reality. Quote:
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JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#4 | |||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,583
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The McLeod-Caroline case, in fact, is a US precedent for the proposition that there is no well-recognized general right of hot pursuit on land. The following quotes are from an account of that case, published in 1881, 1899: http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBo...r/llCy694.html By way of background, a significant number of US residents (organized into Hunters' Lodges from NY to Ohio) were intent on an invasion of Canada. The US Federal government took a dim view of their activities. Two of their leaders (Mackenzie and Johnson) were indicted and convicted in US Circuit Court for the Northern District of New York for violation of the Neutrality Act of 1818. The Caroline was a US registered ship which was used to supply some of Mackenzie's bunch, who had seized Navy Island in the Niagara River (in Canadian territory). The McLeod case ensued. Quote:
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The important point in I Law (and to the doctrine of hot pursuit) is that the UK government, in the end, apologized for its troops' violation of US territory. Thus, McLeod is a US precedent AGAINST a general right of hot pursuit across international land boundaries. Of course, other facts - UN resolutions; treaties, executive agreements, etc. - can provide rights of hot pursuit. Which brings us to the next post on that question.
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JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#5 | ||||||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 3,583
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Lead elements of US forces crossed the border on 15 Mar (the main striking force of the 7th, 10th, 11th and 13th CAV would soon follow). The joint congressional resolution, approving the expedition, was duly enacted on 17 Mar (Boot, p.371 n.190). So, domestic US law was satisfied. What about I Law ? Boot explains that as follows (p.190): Quote:
Boot's tone seems (IMO) to suggest this was a "make weight" legal argument; e.g., dust off an old and unused treaty to justify an "invasion of another country" (his words, not mine). But, not so ... The treaty had been used before by both sides because of the difficult border situation, where many "hostiles" (my words) attacked both countries from border sanctuaries. An example, from 30 years before, was Gen. Crooks 1885 expedition into Mexico. Quote:
So, the Villa expedition was not unique - and very legal, based on prior precedents. What is very legal is not necessarily practical or guaranteed of good results. Thus, Boot notes (p.202): Quote:
Another aspect of the Villa expedition, relevant to the present, was the Army's "modification" of its tasked mission (Boot at 189-190), which I will paraphrase. Newton Baker (SecWar) conveyed Wilson's order ("capture him") to Hugh Scott (Army CoS), who questioned making war on one man - what if Villa took a train to "Guatamala, Yucatan, or South America". Was the Army supposed to chase him there ? No, that was not what Baker wanted. So, Scott "suggested", what you really want us to do is to capture or destroy "his band". Yup, that's it, said Baker. Thus, military common sense won that day; and its modified task was to end when "Villa's band or bands are known to be broken up." ------------------------------------------- Bonnie & Clyde When automobiles became crime tools, law enforcement was faced with pursuit problems caused by ancient jurisdictional boundary lines, in two areas: intrastate and interstate. The intrastate problem had two aspects. The first was the limit for municipal departments (down to the village constable). The second was the limit for county departments (county lines). The solution was adoption of state statutes, expanding the territorial limits in hot pursuit situations - e.g., county mounties could cross county lines in pursuit. The exact solution varied from state to state (I imagine that Michigan and Alabama have slightly different statutes). In any event, the various agencies within a state have SOPs spelling out what their officers should do in hot pursuit situations. The interstate problem is more akin to I Law, since our states are sovereign (more or less). The problem of crossing state lines was solved by uniform state acts (e.g., Uniform Act on Fresh Pursuit) and/or by interstate compacts ("treaties" between states). Those solutions were well in place by the 1930's. See, as examples (you can Google up a ton of stuff): Quote:
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International law (except as to high seas piracy, which has always been a "universal jurisdiction") is more in the pre-Bonnie & Clyde state. Cases such as McLeod-Caroline establish that there is no well-recognized general right of hot pursuit on land. However, the right of hot pursuit can be established by treaty (a public document) as in the Villa and Apache examples. It can also be established by executive agreements (which can be public or secret) between heads of state. The question of hot pursuit by Afghan-NATO-US forces into Pakistan has been the subject of a number of Pakistani news reports over the last 8 months - many more recently. Some evidence suggests that there is an executive agreement covering that issue; but that there is some dispute as to its exact parameters. See attached .doc file (too many URLs and leads to set out in this post); the main texts (not included in the attached file for obvious reasons) have the "rest of the story".
__________________
JMM When I quit learning, I'll be dead. Crabtree's Bludgeon (updated) - No set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated and implausible - credits: R.V. Jones & Hayden Peake. |
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#6 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,987
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No matter what legal experts say (especially those from the pursuing country are pretty much irrelevant) - any more violations of foreign nation's sovereignty by specific countries would only deteriorate the international security situation.
Something like the violation of national sovereignty for such a low-ranking reason like pursuit of some irregular fighters can over time create (reinforce) the perception that a country considers all non-allied countries as fair game. It's pretty bad that the Israelis and Turks very often cross their borders. The Turks have the excuse that Northern Iraq is/was not controlled by the central government and the Israelis pay for their behaviour with 'poor' relations to all nearby nations. It's really not worth it. |
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