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Thread: Insurgency vs. Civil War

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    Council Member ryanmleigh's Avatar
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    Default Insurgency vs. Civil War

    All-
    I am looking for some assistance trying to differentiate between insurgencies and civil wars. I have already read most of the literature on the benchmarks necessary to meet the international standard for a civil war, I am more interested in what the community thinks about the differences between the two. Academic sources would be helpful, but I am just as inclined to read your opinions as well. I appreciate any assistance you all can provide.

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    Default It's a matter of definition

    Ryan--

    All civil wars are insurgencies if by insurgency we mean an effort to overturn a govt and replace it with another by armed means. Not all insurgenies are civil wars. If the govt is some external power or a clearly defined different group. Thus, the ANC insurgency against the RSA was not a civil war because both Afrikaners and Africans defined themselves as different peoples. Of course, the outcome was to redefine all S Africans as one people. And, I left off the Anglo S. Africans. so, perhaps, it was a civi war after all.

    Cheers

    JohnT

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Why differentiate? What purpose does it serve?

    In very general terms I think a Civil War would generally see warfare between two or more fielded forces, aimed at taking and holding objectives and centres of population. Irregular forces generally avoid taking and holding ground, though sometimes they do.
    OK, I differentiate between regular and irregular, but there comes a point where there is little actual benefit in doing so.

    Again, I cannot see why defining this would be important.
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    I have always thought of insurgencies as violent/non-violent activites whose goal/s can be scaled along a continuum from a change in policy to outright state capture (or revolution, i.e., overthrowing a regime).

    In civil wars the identity of the state, its organisational form and the scope/extent/depth of its territorial authority are themselves are in question (take, for instance, the US war of Sesession/Civil War).
    Last edited by Tukhachevskii; 06-24-2010 at 03:02 PM. Reason: pselingl

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    Quote Originally Posted by John T. Fishel View Post
    ll civil wars are insurgencies if by insurgency we mean an effort to overturn a govt and replace it with another by armed means.
    I would largely agree (although I would probably count RSA as a civil war), in general civil wars are a subset of insurgencies. A few defining features:

    1) Severity. We don't consider the Red Army Faction versus West Germany a civil war. (I'm sometimes tempted to define civil war as an insurgency that reaches the point that the government thinks "holy crap, we could lose this!")

    2) Internal actors (although they may have external patrons). Violence wholly directed at an occupying power would not be a civil war.

    3) Insurgency targets an established authority. In those rare cases where there is no authority--Somalia at certain times--you could have the unusual case of a civil war that isn't an insurgency.

    Wilf raises an essential social science point, though. Categories are abstractions, and it's only worth defining and using them if by so doing we gain some greater analytical insight.
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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rex Brynen View Post
    Wilf raises an essential social science point, though.
    Oh Crap! Now I'm doing social science. I need to hold a gun.... now!!
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    Council Member M-A Lagrange's Avatar
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    Rex Brynen
    I would largely agree (although I would probably count RSA as a civil war), in general civil wars are a subset of insurgencies. A few defining features:

    1) Severity. We don't consider the Red Army Faction versus West Germany a civil war. (I'm sometimes tempted to define civil war as an insurgency that reaches the point that the government thinks "holy crap, we could lose this!")

    2) Internal actors (although they may have external patrons). Violence wholly directed at an occupying power would not be a civil war.

    3) Insurgency targets an established authority. In those rare cases where there is no authority--Somalia at certain times--you could have the unusual case of a civil war that isn't an insurgency.

    Rex, what would be DRC?
    A war conducted by local actors in the name of external powers who are not happy that the pupet they pupet in place, after overpassing an established authority, is no more listening to them?
    Just to add some fun, you can even add the fact that you have at least 2 external powers who are fighting indirectly to take control over strategic natural resources in a cold war like manner... (But that's just if you wanna go in details).

    By the way, Liberia was no insurgency. It was a civil war but the rebel (Taylor) invaded the country without national support and insurgent network.
    But 1) his troops were mainly liberian and 2) his obective was to reconquere power in the name of a liberia ethnic group (the Kongo).

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    Council Member ryanmleigh's Avatar
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    Rex-
    Did you truly mean to say that civil war is a subset of insurgency, or did you mean that insurgency is a subset of civil war? Your example 1 would lead me to believe that there is scale of intrastate conflict, with civil war residing somewhere at the top and insurgency falling somehwere below that.

    The current literature would also support some concept of scale. According to COW (Correlates of War) University of Michigan, political violence must incur at least 1,000 deaths to be considered a civil war. There is also a necessity for a minimum number of casualties incurred by the incumbent forces in order to achieve civil war status.

    Much of the discussion so far has been terrific, to some degree I think it highlights some of the confusion surrounding the concepts of civil war and insurgency. I believe that is why it is important to identify the differences between them. It goes further than just categorizing conflict. Understanding the conflict should have an impact on how we address it.
    Last edited by ryanmleigh; 06-24-2010 at 04:05 PM. Reason: spelling error

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmleigh View Post
    Much of the discussion so far has been terrific, to some degree I think it highlights some of the confusion surrounding the concepts of civil war and insurgency. I believe that is why it is important to identify the differences between them. It goes further than just categorizes conflict. Understanding the conflict should have an impact on how we address it.
    OK. I'd really like to see you put some flesh on the bones here.
    From a practitioners point of view, calling it a Civil War or an insurgency is actually completely superfluous, unless it's blindingly obvious, which it is. Warfare is pretty much warfare. War is War.
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    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
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    Council Member ryanmleigh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    From a practitioners point of view, calling it a Civil War or an insurgency is actually completely superfluous, unless it's blindingly obvious, which it is. Warfare is pretty much warfare. War is War.
    I agree wholeheartedly with your statement. At the tactical level, where the rubber meets the road, all war is war. However, I would argue that at the operational and strategic level there is difference in how we approach different types of conflict. That is why I think there is utility is identfying the differences.

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    Council Member William F. Owen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmleigh View Post
    However, I would argue that at the operational and strategic level there is difference in how we approach different types of conflict. That is why I think there is utility is identfying the differences.
    OK, well apart from the fact I do not think there is an "operational level of War" what is that utility? Why does it matter as concerns strategy or policy?
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

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    Council Member ryanmleigh's Avatar
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    The most immediate example I can think of is the disposition and composition of the ANSF in Afghanistan. If we say that we are conducting a COIN strategy in Afghanistan then should force levels not be heavily weighted for the police instead of the army. Yet both the current levels and the espoused end state levels represent a large disparity of army to police, somewhere around 240,000 to 180,000. If we are conducting COIN should those numbers not be reversed? That is just one quick example of why it might matter.

    Interesting also to hear to don't believe in the operational level of war. Another discussion I wouldn't mind getting involved in.
    Last edited by ryanmleigh; 06-24-2010 at 05:09 PM. Reason: contextual reframing

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    Default What is your purpose

    in trying to differentiate between insurgencies and civil wars ?

    E.g., military-side (and at what level); or political-side (including legal as a subset of political) ?

    And then there could be an "armed social science" definition, as to which I am sure Wilf can lead the charge.

    Back to Wilf's first post here - why is it important to you to differentiate ?

    Regards

    Mike

    PS: As regards military vs police ratios, I (from the political-side - police as part of a functioning criminal justice system) can't see where calling a problem an insurgency or civil war would make any difference in deciding on military-police ratios. The ratios and functions of military and police depend on the tangible context - not what you call that context. That context may or may not allow police and judges to operate. As Wilf will say, JMM, I don't want to be baby-sitting your cops and judges - and that posits that I have competent cops and judges (not a given in Astan).
    Last edited by jmm99; 06-24-2010 at 05:45 PM. Reason: Add PS

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    Default While I have a minor quible with Rex

    over Somalia - kinda like his quible with me over RSA (and I can see his point in both cases), the real issue as Wilf succinctly put it and JMM reiterated in his lawerese , why do you want to differentiate? what is your purpose? If it is purely academic, then you might need an operational definition which can pretty much be what you want it to be (so long as it doesn't do too much violence to the general understanding of the term a la Webster),

    Cheers

    JohnT

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    Council Member ryanmleigh's Avatar
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    Default Personal Interest Explained

    Since there seems to be some issue with why I am looking for a distinction between insurgency and civil war, please allow me to illuminate.

    1. I find the lack of coherent difference between the use of terms problematic when assessing conflict.

    2. Academic literature seems to intermix the terms, some write very clearly about insurgency separate and distinct from civil wars. Others ignorantly or intentionally intermix terms in both research and literature which can then be used by practitioners of war while not understanding the logic behind the data.

    3. I am currently writing a monograph on the distinctions and thought it might be possible to reach a larger audience in order to create discourse as to the meaning of the words insurgency and civil wars.

    If the concensus is that there is no difference, fine so be it. I accept that. However, I would still be interested in the discussion which revolves around the use of the words in both strategy and policy.

    I hope this helps to clarify why I think there might some utility in identifying any difference. Whether it is political or military. I still find it instructive to debate the meaning of the words.
    Last edited by ryanmleigh; 06-24-2010 at 06:20 PM. Reason: additional context

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmleigh View Post
    The current literature would also support some concept of scale. According to COW (Correlates of War) University of Michigan, political violence must incur at least 1,000 deaths to be considered a civil war. There is also a necessity for a minimum number of casualties incurred by the incumbent forces in order to achieve civil war status.
    I've never understood why CoW uses an absolute threshold, and not a relative one. 100 dead in Tuvalu would be a civil war. 100 dead in DR Congo is a bad morning.

    Yes, I mean to say civil war is a subset of insurgency. Insurgency is simply violence against established authority. Civil wars are always large insurgencies (hence the "war").

    But, to reiterate what several have now said--it all depends on why you're slotting things in conceptual boxes.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


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    Differentiation is certainly difficult and there isn't a universal distinction. One might even argue the only difference is semantic, driven by a rhetorical or propagandist purpose. The distinction is also self-referential to a large degree which would mean that, like "terrorism" there can never be a universally accepted definition.

    However, here's a possible simplistic distinction:

    Insurgency will always contain a heavy focus on civic action by one or both of the belligerents (usually both). In a civil war civic action is minimal or absent and the focus is on military means.

    Thoughts?
    Supporting "time-limited, scope limited military actions" for 20 years.

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    Default Gotta agree (and disagree) with Wilf

    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    OK. I'd really like to see you put some flesh on the bones here.
    From a practitioners point of view, calling it a Civil War or an insurgency is actually completely superfluous, unless it's blindingly obvious, which it is. Warfare is pretty much warfare. War is War.
    If a distinction does not help you deal with a problem more effectively, it probably lends more confusion than help. IW, 4GW, Asymmetric Warfare, etc spring to mind. New names that don't help me solve the problems they describe.

    To say that the historic (and recent) distinctions for using the term insurgency or civil war to describe a conflict are a bit loose is generous. I haven't seen a clear distinction and have never seen much rhyme nor reason to how these things have been sorted.

    Now, where I disagree with Wilf is that conflict between a state and its own populace is the same as conflict between two states. I understand where he's coming from, and we agree to disagree on this matter. My position is that when a state employs its military against its own populace in COIN that it may suppress the conflict for a time, but makes the underlying insurgency worse, and merely pushing the problem down the road a bit.

    That said, if a serious distinction was made between a civil war and an insurgency that divides it into problems with two distinctly different solutions, then there is some value. I don't think agonizing over strategic-operational-tactical levels of conflict applies or his helpful though, so I wouldn't go down that path. If it is insurgency at a tactical level it is insurgency at all levels. Same for Civil War.

    So one distinction that I have been playing with lately is that insurgency is revolutionary, an informal or illegally formed movement within a state to either change the current organic government; separatist, break some piece off from a state to form a new state; or Resistance, to overthrow some occupying/colonial force and its puppets. In all these cases I do not believe the COIN force is best served by treating the conflict as "warfare", but rather as a civil emergency that requires addressing the causal concerns rooted in the perceptions of their Legitimacy, the Injustice and Disrespect perceived by the populace, and ensuring that the populace has trusted legal means available to them to address these concerns. There will be fighting, after all, by definition the insurgent is acting outside the law and opens himself to full fury of the state, but resolution will come from addressing the root causes.

    A Civil War distinction makes sense if rebel segment of the state has acted within the con struts of the law to separate themselves legally, form a new state, and are then fighting to secure that end. This is what happened in the American Civil War. A new nation was formed legally, that legality was challenged by the Union, and the two state waged a war to settle the matter. Perfectly logical to treat such an event as warfare. However, once one of those states is defeated in war, it may then devolve into an insurgency based on some mix of the categories above.

    So based on this definition, there was no civil war in Iraq (unless the Kurds decide to make a full break as a state), and there is no civil war in Afghanistan. Both are insurgencies and are best resolved by addressing them as a whole as civil emergencies which require a main effort of addressing the failures of governance as perceived by their respective populaces; and a supporting effort of justly applying the rule of law to those who bring violence to the state and the populace to achieve their ends.
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    This seems to have been pretty well covered, but insurgency is a strategy that is sometimes used in civil wars. A civil war is simply an armed conflict where the antagonists are exclusively or primarily citizens of the same state.

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    Interesting discussion, folks and, since I know how much Wilf loves social sciences, I thought I'd toss in my$.0195.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmleigh View Post
    If the concensus is that there is no difference, fine so be it. I accept that. However, I would still be interested in the discussion which revolves around the use of the words in both strategy and policy.
    Well, words, in and of themselves, have no meaning, only that which is ascribed and agreed to by those who use them. That, BTW, isn't just playing with semantics; it's a root behind semantics.

    On "civil war" vs. "insurgency", I tend to think of them as overlapping circles of meaning, with a fair amount of overlap. In some cases, civil wars have absolutely nothing to do with policy or governance structure (the dynastic wars of the 11th - 16th centuries are examples), while in other cases it is, IMHO, possible to have a "civil war" with little or no violence and, certainly, no open warfare (think along the coup d'etate line or, at the other extreme, the economic lawfare of the Byzantine bureaucrat faction against the aristocracy).

    Quote Originally Posted by ryanmleigh View Post
    I hope this helps to clarify why I think there might some utility in identifying any difference. Whether it is political or military. I still find it instructive to debate the meaning of the words.
    Personally, I've found that it it really useful to assume that the boundary condition of conceptual terms gets defined by identifying central characteristics and then assigning membership values for specific instances to each of those core characteristics and seeing what clusters develop. Sometimes when you do that, what you think is one or two competing terms actually shows up four or five clusters.

    Cheers,

    Marc
    Sic Bisquitus Disintegrat...
    Marc W.D. Tyrrell, Ph.D.
    Institute of Interdisciplinary Studies,
    Senior Research Fellow,
    The Canadian Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies, NPSIA
    Carleton University
    http://marctyrrell.com/

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