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Thread: Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

  1. #361
    Council Member mirhond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Citizen: a legally recognized subject or national of a state or commonwealth, either native or naturalized
    OK, got it. So, back toJMA question, citizen can vote on referendum, while non-citizen can not.

    @OUTLAW 09

    mirhond---if you did not know this common former Communist saying then you were born what after say 1995---even your parents still know it---come on dude---it is still the internal saying for the KGB/MoI riot police today in Moscow in the 21st century
    Wishful Thinking Fallacy http://www.fallacyfiles.org/wishthnk.html
    Your claim about my age or knowledge may not NESSESARILY be true just because you believe its true.
    I'am actually 1978 born, but I've never heard that saying. I could even send you a copy of my ID, but it won't change your belief - you already labelled me as "KGB agent". I think it would even reinforce your false belief, because "KGB agent" may have a handful of fake IDs.

    Secondly, you are right if you were born after say 1995 you would have never seen the red arm bans of the soviet auxiliary police who were communist party members.
    Cannot fault you for not knowing what you do not know but then again you seen to not be so well informed of what is going on inside of your own country.
    So tell me, O, Well-Informed user, what is a soviet auxiliary police with red armbands, whom I've never seen in my childhood? And provide a link, please. May be you mean "druzhinniki" volunteers? Well, yes, those guys did wear red armbands. But I fail to see how are those long-extinct species from distant past connected with modern Ukrainian Sturmabteilug which has a easily distinctive black and red armbands with "правий сектор" insignia?

    mirhond---now tell me the former KGB/Putin does not "rule" Russia and Putin does not have a KGB "history" and do not tell me his inner circle is not KGB.
    Well, that's just another rethological fallacy, though I'am not sure of what kind. You really think I would state the outright and blatant lie so that you'll vigorously attack and dismiss it? I'am a KGB agent, after all, you can't expect I'd do such a stupid thing ^_^
    Last edited by mirhond; 03-17-2014 at 01:40 PM.

  2. #362
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    mirhond---can you explain to us just how it is "possible" that while Russia condemns neo Nazi's and radical right wingers in the Ukraine the following neo Nazi's and radical right wingers participated in "democratic" elections in the Crimea---just how did they get on when Russia "stopped" all traffic from the Ukraine entering into the Crimea out of "fear" of terror attacks by the Ukrainian neo Nazi's.

    Seems like you all have double standards when it fits your argument does it not?

    Come on dude get a better argument and stop ranting and raving as most seven year olds have on any given day better arguments .

    1600 GMT: While Russia is presenting the referendum today as a move to save the region from neo-Nazis, a large number of the ‘independent observers’ spotted monitoring the vote today come from Europe’s extreme right.

    A sample of the far right figures here includes:

    Bela Kovacs – a Hungarian MEP for the neo-Nazi Jobbik party.

    Aymeric Chauprade – a nationalist, pro-Russian political theorist and member of France’s far-right Front National, whose leader, Marine Le Pen has supported Russia’s stance on Ukraine and condemned “extremists” in the Maidan movement.

    Frank Creyelman – a Belgian MEP for the far-right Vlaams Belang party (formerly Vlaams Blok).

    Ewald Johann Stadler – an MEP in the late Jörg Haider’s Bündnis Zukunft Österreich (Alliance for the Future of Austria).

    Luc Michel – active with various neo-nazi groups in Belgium and is a supporter of Eduard Limonov’s National Bolshevik party.


    Hope they did not "infect" the democratic people of the Crimea with their views while they were there.

  3. #363
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    mirhond---come on man---born in 1978 and how old by 1995 when the Red Army withdrew from the GDR what 17/18 and you never heard of that saying--where were you in the SU---in Minsk or Moscow? Know you had to have been in the Communist Youth Movement and still you did not hear the saying?

    That is like Rostec recently stating they downed an American drone which they identified as a Hunter over the Crimea which was launched from Barvaria. By the way the photo they showed is similar to your photo (it showed a drone carrying missiles) and the Hunter does not carry missiles.

    This is what I meant by using photos and only portions out of quoted articles "that allude" to your arguments--- any information can be used in any way---just depends on the person creating the "story" and how he "wants" to "sell" the story--much like you do.

    If you "bought" that story (since the Hunter has a range of only 125miles) then I will be more than happy to sell you the TV tower here in Berlin Mitte.

    It is kind of like you baiting against neo Nazi's in the Ukraine, but then cheering them on in the Crimea as "election observers" of a "democratic election".

    You did I suppose not see the CCN video footage of an individual dropping TWO ballots into the electoral boxes---guess that was what "Crimean democracy" at work.

    Come on get real---double street driving is really hard sometimes.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 03-17-2014 at 02:02 PM.

  4. #364
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    Outlaw, that Anaga site says that about UAV-s that during first days of March, US brigade was dispatched to Ukrainian city Kirovograd. From that location UAV's are monitoring Crimea and Russian administrative districts bordering Ukraine.

    В первых числах марта бригада была перебазирована в украинский Кировоград, откуда её беспилотники совершают разведывательные полёты над Крымом и над приграничными с Украиной российскими областями.
    http://www.anaga.ru/sbit-mq-5b.html

    Russians have used this kind of observers also in Abhazia. If someone can read Russian, then here is little overview http://www.apsny.ge/analytics/1315245909.php

    About Ukraine 1 more article in Russian http://noborders.org.ua/ru/sfery-dey...ssyjskaya-set/

    Last comment in English http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot
    Last edited by kaur; 03-17-2014 at 02:14 PM.

  5. #365
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Mirhond:

    Ok, you guys are doing better now. For the last several posts you've had a good English writer doing the posts. That is important on this site. When you guys go over to a college age site the 'I'm a poor speaker of English' bit will get you some sympathy, but not around here. Old guys don't fall for that so easy.

    But you are still making some errors more suited to a college age site. For example, you claim to have participated in some demonstrations. Again, college age girls will swoon over that, 'Oh, he's so dreamy.'. But here we figure it's just a barroom brag. We just nod our heads and say 'Yea right.'

    Next, mix things up a little. Lately you've been trotting out one 'fallacy' after another. It reads like your lead guy gave your best English writer a list of 'fallacies' to emphasize. Or barring that, 'fallacy' was the last chapter you studied on one of your classes. You're seeing zebras. (extra points if you get that reference.)

    So all in all, you are doing a little better. But still not good enough. Remember you have a tradition and reputation to uphold. Here in the West we are conditioned to think of you guys as Moscow Centre, Karla, the guys who ran Kim Philby, the Walker ring and all that. We haven't been associating you with lazy and clumsy. Come on man! You can do better. Vlad and the other siloviki are counting on you!
    Last edited by carl; 03-17-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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    Art by Moscow artist Budaev.
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  7. #367
    Council Member mirhond's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OUTLAW 09 View Post
    mirhond---can you explain to us just how it is "possible" that while Russia condemns neo Nazi's and radical right wingers in the Ukraine the following neo Nazi's and radical right wingers participated in "democratic" elections in the Crimea---just how did they get on when Russia "stopped" all traffic from the Ukraine entering into the Crimea out of "fear" of terror attacks by the Ukrainian neo Nazi's.

    Seems like you all have double standards when it fits your argument does it not?
    Double standarts is completly OK in Politics, as you know. Well, if you don't know this - it's bad for you, you might be greatly disappointed with reality.
    May be you still believe in ethic and moral standarts in politics?
    Anyway, I'd be grateful if you at least try to falsify my arguments and disprove evidences which I posted here.

    While Russia is presenting the referendum today as a move to save the region from neo-Nazis, a large number of the ‘independent observers’ spotted monitoring the vote today come from Europe’s extreme right.
    A sample of the far right figures here includes:
    OK, you spotted a dozen of bad guys, but what about other observers? Are they also extreme right or left or pro-Russian or in other way unreliable? If no, well, it's a spotlight fallacy http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Spotlight_fallacy

    Lately you've been trotting out one 'fallacy' after another.
    @carl I have to. What else can I do to prevent you from throwing one fallaciuos argument after another? Besides, if you'll start reading stuff and getting smarter I'll consider my mission accomplished It's your compatriots, best Western minds wright all that wonderful articles and books about rationality - will you dismiss it just because some anonimous bad guy uses it? I hope you not.
    You're seeing zebras. (extra points if you get that reference.)
    Nope, I didn't. Could you explain?
    Last edited by mirhond; 03-17-2014 at 03:22 PM.

  8. #368
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    mirhond---what argument?---the only one you seem to throw out is the Nazi argument that all of the Ukraine are Nazi's---and yet you refuse to respond to the question on just why you accept Nazi's in the Crimea but when they are in the Ukraine you flip out.

    Cut out the sidestep in your double standards comment---it was just sidestepping--you simply did not answer a rather direct question did you not?

    Come on man ---get one argument at least correct and do not try to create an argument that really is not one by trying to impress yourself.

    1. you still have not stated why you accept Nazi's in the Crimea---strange double standard for a country that claims that it was a "mistreated Russian population at the hands of Ukrainian Nazi's" that triggered this whole problem

    2. you use a newspaper article to quote the "mistreatment of Ukrainian Jews" when the article said the opposite and yet you persist in only taking "selected" sentences that you perceive supports your view and YET overlook the entire article---GO back and reread your own article.

    3. you claim to be Russian yet know no political sayings that would reflect you even understand your own society and its development or yet grew up in that society---maybe you are just apolitical which does happen these days and is OK

    4. you provide a photo that yet anyone could have created--as it is not dated which happens with most digital cameras these days-did you see the leg protection worn by one of the pictured men--- was exactly that worn by the Burkat----you did see that right?

    5. for every article you find I can show you an article written by a number of individuals many of whom were Ukrainian Afghanistan veterans stating that there have been over 21 reports of Russian Spetnaz personnel inside the Ukraine---from your own great research you did see those reports correct?

    So come on mirhond get real---restate each argument in a coherent fashion, and provide then your evidence tied to each of your so called arguments point by point using 1, then 2, then 3 because right now you are all over the map my friend.

    EXAMPLE:---You beat up on Ukrainian neo Nazi's but then when confronted with "evidence" as you call it which some of us would call reality then you shift your response and sidestep---come on mirhond stay with one argument and then counter what you get as a response back otherwise one would call what you are doing as misinformation nothing more nothing less my friend. The sentence that started with "Are they also extreme..... is a great example of how you suddenly change directions when confronted with a counter point to your initial argument.

    Is that what they taught you in debate/journalism/military classes?

    "OK, you spotted a dozen of bad guys, but what about other observers? Are they also extreme right or left or pro-Russian or in other way unreliable? If no, well, it's a spotlight fallacy".

    "Anyway, I'd be grateful if you at least try to falsify my arguments and disprove evidences which I posted here."
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 03-17-2014 at 04:16 PM.

  9. #369
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Mirhond:

    It's too soon to give you a grade for today. I'll check back at the end of the day. A hint though, disconnected sentences and open ended rhetorical questions do well in the college lounges.

    One thing you are doing well at though is leading the discussion away from what the siloviki state is actually doing and what we should be doing in response. So good on you for that.

    No extra points for you if you don't know what seeing zebras means.
    Last edited by carl; 03-17-2014 at 03:35 PM.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  10. #370
    Council Member Firn's Avatar
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    @kaur: Only a little snippet about the 'international observer' Fabrizio Bertot, the Italian guy on that all-star list. From Il Quotidiano Piemontese:

    Il comune di Rivarolo Canavese stato sciolto per mafia. Il Consiglio dei Ministri ha approvato lo scioglimento del Consiglio comunale del comune, dopo la relazione del ministro dellInterno ai sensi della normativa antimafia. Nei documenti dellinchiesta Minotauro risultava che il sindaco Fabrizio Bertot, candidato alle Europee nel 2009 e alcuni esponenti delle ndrine locali si fossero accordati per raccogliere voti e farlo eleggere. Lo scioglimento di Rivarolo arriva pochi mesi dopo quello disposto dal Viminale per il comune di Leini. La Commissione Antimafia al lavoro anche a proposito del comune di Chivasso per cui ha chiesto una proroga dei tempi di indagine che scadr a luglio.
    Basically the dear Fabrizio Bertot, who was major of Rivarolo Canavese worked togheter with local heads of the 'Nrangheta to collect votes for his 2009 campaign to become a deputy of the European parliament. The whole village council with him as major was thrown out in 2012 'per mafia' and put under direct political control. That is a rare feat in Northern Italy were the various 'mafia' clans had difficulties to get themselves established. He is unsurprisingly a party member of our small criminal clown who had regular sex with various underaged prostitutes.

    So after having bought votes with the help of the local mob to get himself elected he helped now the local seperatists lead by 'Goblin' an (ex)-criminal to 'observe' an illegal referendum. Maybe he had some tips to give on how to buy votes and likely took some money for his brave efforts...

    He might need some money to win the reelection to keep his parliamentary immunity for now. The prefettura has already taken the first steps in the case against him. Let's hope that the Italian justice moves much faster then usual to first deny his entry and then to throw him into the place where he belongs.

    Another explanation for his help in the Crimea might be the hope that he gets political asylum in Russia after suffering from the prosecution of fascist bandits in Italia for his heoric efforts for the freedom of Crimea...
    Last edited by Firn; 03-17-2014 at 03:48 PM.
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  11. #371
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    kaur---reference the newspaper article;

    1. first of all no US intelligence brigade which is what the first reporting called it ie 66 MI Group has been moved anyway outside of Germany--that is not how the US Army works---you would have seen reporting out of Germany indicating the movement of a brigade .

    By the way a brigade is approximately anywhere from 2500 to 4000 individuals and you certainly would have had Ukrainian reporting if that many Americans had showed up.

    2. again the only photo depicted in the article was one of a flying UAV/drone when in fact Restec claimed to actually have downed it---if one has it then show it which they did not which makes it a false flag misinformation attempt by the KGB/FSB

    3. when Restec quoted the actual designation of the UAV/drone (it was what we call the Hunter--by the way the Hunter is actually assigned to a Division not a brigade another mistake in the article and showed the only photo (a flying drone) which depicted a drone with missiles-- the Hunter does not and has never carried missiles

    If you look at misinformation it comes in three different flavors white, grey and black---this report is in the grey area is it attempts to mix truth with falsehoods. IE drone/missiles/US intelligence/moved to Ukraine to support neo Nazi's that illegally took over the government/threatening the Crimea.

    All in order to prove to the Crimean's and Russians that see NATO and the US is causing the entire problem and thus are the core threat and are supporting as well all those neo Nazi's in the Ukraine who are "beating up and mistreating our loyal Russian brothers who need protection".

    In some aspects this is the same technique that mirhond who has been blogging here is using. First setting an argument, then shifting when challenged and then resetting the initial argument when it was responded to---always moving the argument and supporting evidence is one element of a misinformation campaign all the while still trying to make it sound like neo Nazi's were the cause for everything.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 03-17-2014 at 04:20 PM.

  12. #372
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    Default No Daisy Day in Moscow

    I participated in 2011 winter protests, so when I came closer to a line of internal security troops, I discovered some dead-eyed guys who will spray the crowd with automatic gunfire without second thought. So, I'am quit.
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  13. #373
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    Firn and Outlaw, thanks for comments.

    Couple more observers.

    Zhdanok became politically active in the late 1980s, at first a member of the Popular Front, she soon became one of the leaders of the Interfront, a political organization opposing Latvia's independence from the Soviet Union and market reforms. Prior to that, she taught mathematics at the University of Latvia, where she received her doctorate in mathematics in 1992. In 1989, she was elected to the Riga city Soviet, and in 1990, to the Supreme Soviet of the Latvian SSR. Zhdanok was also active with the Communist Party of Latvia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatjana_%C5%BDdanoka

    Bckman

    Nashi protests in Helsinki[edit]

    Bckman arranged the "Nashi-protest" on 23 March 2009. The handful of demonstrators were the focus of attention for about 40 representatives of the media.[38]
    In March 2009 Bckman as part of the Finnish Anti-Fascist Committee arranged a series of protests in Helsinki attended by activists of Russian Nashi, Night Watch, against what they called the opening [of] a new anti-Russian front of information warfare on the territory of Finland by [the] Estonian embassy. Also Abdullah Tammi and his followers from the prospective Finnish Islamic Party participated. The protests were aimed against seminars, against a book about the Soviet occupation of Estonia, and against films presented by the Estonian embassy in Finland, especially the film Soviet Story by Edvins Snore.[38] In media commentaries for Swedish, Finnish and Russian press, television and radio, Bckman claimed that the Soviet Union did not occupy Estonia, and belittled the significance of the Soviet deportations from Estonia.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_B%C3%A4ckman

  14. #374
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    95% vote in Crimea for becoming part of the siloviki state. Putin and the boys aren't even trying to make it look good anymore, it's just a straight up power play.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

  15. #375
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Has Putin begun undoing the collapse of the Soviet Union, much like Stalin did to undo the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk?

    Many Americans have trouble understanding modern Russia or leader Vladimir Putin. That’s in good part because they have little or no understanding of Russia’s history or geopolitics.

    “The Soviets Union will return” I wrote in 1991 after the collapse of the USSR deprived the Russian imperium of a third of its territory, almost half its people and much of its world power.

    A similar disaster for Russia occurred in 1918 at the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Defeated by the German-Austrian-Bulgarian-Turkish Central Powers in World War I and racked by revolution, Lenin’s new Bolshevik regime bowed to German demands to hand over the Baltic states and allow Ukraine to become independent.

    As soon as Josef Stalin consolidated power, he began undoing the Brest-Litovsk surrender. The Baltic states, Ukraine, the southern Caucasus and parts of “Greater Romania” were reoccupied. Half of Poland again fell under Russian control. Stalin restored his nation to its pre-war 1914 borders, killing millions in the process.
    http://www.unz.com/emargolis/another...uss-in-crimea/
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  16. #376
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Mirhond:

    It's too soon to give you a grade for today. I'll check back at the end of the day. A hint though, disconnected sentences and open ended rhetorical questions do well in the college lounges.

    One thing you are doing well at though is leading the discussion away from what the siloviki state is actually doing and what we should be doing in response. So good on you for that.

    No extra points for you if you don't know what seeing zebras means.

    Russian Web Brigade? Tee hee.

    "The web brigades(Russian: Веб-бригады )[1] are alleged astroturfing groups linked to the Federal Security Service of the Russian Federation. They are purported to be teams of commentators that participate in political blogs and Internet forums to promote disinformation and prevent free discussions of undesirable subjects"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_brigades
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
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  17. #377
    Council Member AdamG's Avatar
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    Not that the US doesn't practice "Wag The Dog" (from the USS Maine to Kosovo), but here's a take on the Russian spin.

    Getting the real story of what is going on in Ukraine is hard enough. And the Russian media seems intent on making it even harder.

    With Russian forces controlling Crimea and with Moscow contemplating further military action in Ukraine, Russian media and leading political figures have been shrill in their denunciations of "fascists" in Kyiv and their claims of anti-Semitic incidents, of attacks on ethnic Russians in the eastern reaches of Ukraine, and of floods of beleaguered refugees streaming across the border into Russia.

    But much of this information is demonstrably false, emerging from unsourced media reports, then making its way into the statements of Russian politicians, and even into Western media reports. Events are echoing the 1997 U.S. film "Wag the Dog," in which spin-doctors use the media to whip up support for a nonexistent war.
    http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-.../25286568.html

    See also
    http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...647#post153647
    A scrimmage in a Border Station
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    Adam---you make a point that I made over on the blog side--this is not about a sphere of influence---this is a doctrine meaning he will take back any state that he can claim has Russian citizens residing in ---ie the Baltics, Hungary, eastern portion of Poland and expand deeper into Moldavia and Georgia and to a degree if one expanded the doctrine I guess it could in theory be even Berlin since there is a sizable group here as well.

    Many Americans do not get it as it has been relatively peaceful in Europe since 1995 and the Cold War only a memory.

    He has openly stated his hatred of the dissolving of the old SU, his inner circle is former and active KGB/FSB and he himself was a COL in Dresden GDR---do not for a moment think he is a dove and a peacenik.

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    mirhond---since you seem to think photos are evidence here is a link from the Crimea today that shows the same shin guards being wore by Russian military personnel that seem to be shown in the photo you used for neo Nazi's in the Ukraine.

    Also worn by the Burkat---so were they really Nazi's or really Russians or what the heck maybe Chinese?

    https://twitter.com/sia_vlasova/stat...716161/photo/1

    So now give me an argument that counters the shin guards being worn in both photos since you are into arguments and evidence.

    By the way mirhond the same photo proves the entire Russian government and Putin blatantly lied that there were NO Russian military in the Crimea--come on now mirhond DISPROVE this photo. Seems the civilian defense groups got a new set of uniforms did they not?

    Hope you saved your USDs and Euros.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 03-17-2014 at 05:58 PM.

  20. #380
    Council Member carl's Avatar
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    Outlaw 09:

    And the key to combating them is stressing their economy like you and Firn have been saying. Those guys are not good at making things, not good at economies. We can do it. We'll see if we have the nerve. Putin and the boys do have nerve.
    "We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene

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