USMC and SOCOM

[DDilegge]

Decided to place this thread here as perhaps a "capability"...

After much pressure by SECDEF Rumsfeld, it appears that the Marine Corps' increased role within US Special Operations Command is a "done deal". Exactly what this role will finally be and the impact it will have on the roles and missions of the USMC is still to be seen. Would like to get a discussion going here - pros - cons - on a USSOCOM Marine Component, roles and missions, and what all this might mean to the USMC as a whole.

Two news items from today provide some basis for a discussion:

Unconventional Marines - National Review.

Rumsfeld Orders Review of Special Operations Forces - Agence France-Press.

What do you think?

[GorTex6]

I like

[Strickland]

Unlike other services, the USMC is not "in search" of a mission or relevance; thus should not go "chasing dollars" with SOCOM. Why would we want to hand over either 700 FMTU / MTT Marines or a 2000 man det comprised of senior staff non-commissioned officers and officers? I would prefer you stand up two more infantry battalions, which I would imagine could be done for a lot less money.

More SOF is not the answer to what ails us in either Afghanistan or Iraq. SOF should remain an ARSOC, AFSOC, SEAL community.

[DDilegge]

2 Nov. Washington Post - Elite Marine Unit to Help Fight Terrorism. Excerpt:

"Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld yesterday announced creation of a force of about 2,600 highly specialized Marines intended to address a shortage of elite troops available for counterterrorist operations and other missions requiring exceptional skills."

"But in a marked departure for the fiercely self-reliant Corps, the new contingent will report not to the Marine leadership but to the multi-service command responsible for other Special Operations troops."

"The move follows months of difficult negotiations between the Marines and Special Operations community. For years, the Marine Corps has resisted joining the Army, Navy and Air Force in ceding permanent control of a segment of its forces to Special Operations Command, known as Socom..."

[DDilegge]

Reprinted in full per terms of the DoD:

Marine Corps to Join U.S. Special Operations Command
By Donna Miles
American Forces Press Service


WASHINGTON, Nov. 1, 2005 – The Marine Corps will soon officially join the special operations community with a new Marine Special Operations Command to become a component of U.S. Special Operations Command, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld announced here today.
Rumsfeld announced his approval of the plan, part of a sweeping range of transformations under way to strengthen the U.S. military and its special operations forces, during a Pentagon news briefing.

The new command "will increase the number of special operations forces available for missions worldwide while expanding their capabilities in some key areas," Rumsfeld told reporters.

The new command will formalize a longstanding relationship between the Marine Corps and Special Operations Command, Marine Corps spokesman Maj. Douglas Powell told the American Forces Press Service.

It will increase Special Operations Command's ability to field highly skilled special operators in the numbers required to support of the war on terror and other missions, he said.

The command's members will train foreign military units and carry out other Marine Corps missions traditionally associated with special operations work: intelligence, logistics, fire-support coordination, direct action and special reconnaissance, among them, Powell said.

The 2,600-member command will have three subordinate elements: a special operations regiment, foreign military training unit and special operations support group.

A portion of the command will train and deploy with Marine expeditionary units, enhancing those units' special operations capability, officials said.

The command headquarters and nearly all its elements will be based at Camp Lejeune, N.C. One element of the Marine Special Operations Regiment will be stationed at Camp Pendleton, Calif.

The activation date for the new command has not been set, and its elements are expected to phase in their operations. Some elements, including the Foreign Military Training Unit, are expected to assume missions almost immediately, officials said.

Marine Brig. Gen. Dennis J. Hejlik will be the MARSOC's first commander, officials said. Hejlik previously served as deputy commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force.

[Strickland]

So the Marine Corps takes 2600 bodies out of hide? We never get these gents back? How is this a good deal for us? In essense, we just lost 2.5 Infantry Battalions plus a Regimental HQ element. Did they kick the dog on the way out the door?

[Doc.]

Knowing the marines, and corpsman firsthand gives you a different Idea on how you look at this situation. The army, air force, and Seal units have been getting much better funding than their marine brothers have been. I think its about time for these professionals actually get the cut. The Reconnaisance community, forever has been doing the same job as the other branches, with out the money, the publicity and pull that other units get. I went trough ARS, and let me tell you what. The instructors are phenominal. Down right professionals. This one Captain explained to the studs there that if it were his choice as the XO, he'd have the training expanded to where he could have realtime training With the tools and time to properly train these recon marines. Yet they get the job done in 11 weeks and do a damn good job at it. As time's are now these marines go practically straight to war. fighting along with other socom units. But are not referred to the Socom community. Now all of this happening, is to me a good thing. It means maybe someone will wake up and see how these boys are being starved of the right equipment to do the same job as any other operator, and with a 1/4 of the training. I hope to see more funding come our way. If the Marines that are sour about losing thier 0321's then maybe you should have shown some more respect by giving them the up to date gear, and training that you were sending them down range to do.

[Strickland]

Knowing the marines, and corpsman firsthand gives you a different Idea on how you look at this situation. The army, air force, and Seal units have been getting much better funding than their marine brothers have been. I think its about time for these professionals actually get the cut. The Reconnaisance community, forever has been doing the same job as the other branches, with out the money, the publicity and pull that other units get. I went trough ARS, and let me tell you what. The instructors are phenominal. Down right professionals. This one Captain explained to the studs there that if it were his choice as the XO, he'd have the training expanded to where he could have realtime training With the tools and time to properly train these recon marines. Yet they get the job done in 11 weeks and do a damn good job at it. As time's are now these marines go practically straight to war. fighting along with other socom units. But are not referred to the Socom community. Now all of this happening, is to me a good thing. It means maybe someone will wake up and see how these boys are being starved of the right equipment to do the same job as any other operator, and with a 1/4 of the training. I hope to see more funding come our way. If the Marines that are sour about losing thier 0321's then maybe you should have shown some more respect by giving them the up to date gear, and training that you were sending them down range to do.

So the argument is that since funding was deficient for a segment of the Marine community, it is better to lose it and control over it for good, so that it can be properly funded and employed by non-Marines? It is odd that the only positive argument that can be made for this realignment is increased funding.

For all those who believe that SOCOM is the answer in Small Wars, and that the evidence supports this assertion, I would please ask someone show it to me again. Please do not point to Afghanistan. The ANA and NATO force in Afghanistan have NO freedom of movement, do not control the whole of the country, cannot secure the border, have not been able to kill/capture the top remaining Al Qaeda and Taliban leadership, nor disarm the local militias. The Afghan National Army is so poorly funded that it lacks the ability to take the initiative and pursue significant offensive action.

[Bill Moore]

The only advantage I see to this course of action is that you’ll have a unit composed of senior NCOs capable of training foreign units. Too many times I have seen young Marines and Soldiers get put in a trainer role in a foreign nation without being trained to do it, and unsurprisingly fail miserably. Too often this results in these young Marine and Soldier trainers getting frustrated, then calling their students stupid, which in turn harms our relations with that nation, and the snow ball starts rolling downhill from there. The bottom line is you can’t get just grab a much of kids and tell them to train up a foreign unit and expect good results. This is a complex operation, not a “hey you” detail. So if the Marines want to embrace this trainer role (they have a long history of doing it effectively, albeit on a much smaller scale than what we face now), perhaps forming a unit composed of the right people is the right answer. The question remains, does it need to be under SOCOM? Is that the only way it will get funded?

The disadvantages were clearly stated by MAJ Strickland, and with the Marines being such a small force, I don’t see how they can bare the pain of losing this many senior NCOs without bearing a significant degradation to their ranks. As stated elsewhere on this website, this is the war of the strategic corporal, so having that experience in the ranks is critical to strategic success. If the Marines change are planning on changing their MTOE, so these slots don’t come out of hide, then it may work over time.

Since the Army can provide the same function, is this really what we need our Marines to focus on? I hope we haven’t degenerated to the point where we’re all chasing the latest mission of the day. I recall an argument being made in the early 90’s that the Big Conventional Army didn’t need Armor divisions anymore. I for one am very glad we had that tool when Desert Storm rolled around, and also think they were critical to our success in phase III of OIF.

The challenge of defending our democratic and capitalist nation that we all love, is that too many business practices transfer over to national defense. Just because all of our products are not selling off the shelf today, doesn’t mean they will not be needed tomorrow. For example, the Navy has played a limited role in GWOT, but their relative importance increases daily, as does China’s blue water navy. None of us know what threats tomorrow will bring, so I think we would want to maintain a joint force with a wide range of capabilities.

The Marines are unique in that they can bring a very capable functional combat team to the battlefield quickly. Furthermore, they can park a viable combat force off the shore of a potential hot spot giving our policy makers options short of full commitment. We in the Army on the other hand can deploy an Airborne Battalion rapidly, but their combat power is limited, and they can’t linger off the shore shy of an actual commitment. The point is that Marines have and continue to have a viable set of missions that the nation depends on the USMC being able to execute. Despite the fact that the Marines and Army have overlapping capabilities, the reality is that neither can do each other’s core missions based on training and task organization.
I think it is a mistake to assume that Iraq is the wave of the future; it is only the wave of today. Before we throw the baby out with the bath water, we need to assess the impact on our “joint” war fighting capabilities. That bright shinny thing on the horizon today may simply be a mirage.

While it may seem disingenuous coming from an Army guy, I think the Marines need to protect (better fund), and improve their capabilities in their current roles, which remain absolutely essential to our national security.

[DDilegge]

This is a complex operation, not a “hey you” detail. So if the Marines want to embrace this trainer role (they have a long history of doing it effectively, albeit on a much smaller scale than what we face now), perhaps forming a unit composed of the right people is the right answer. The question remains, does it need to be under SOCOM? Is that the only way it will get funded?

The disadvantages were clearly stated by MAJ Strickland, and with the Marines being such a small force, I don’t see how they can bare the pain of losing this many senior NCOs without bearing a significant degradation to their ranks.

Since the Army can provide the same function, is this really what we need our Marines to focus on? I hope we haven’t degenerated to the point where we’re all chasing the latest mission of the day.

The challenge of defending our democratic and capitalist nation that we all love, is that too many business practices transfer over to national defense. Just because all of our products are not selling off the shelf today, doesn’t mean they will not be needed tomorrow.

The Marines are unique in that they can bring a very capable functional combat team to the battlefield quickly. Furthermore, they can park a viable combat force off the shore of a potential hot spot giving our policy makers options short of full commitment. We in the Army on the other hand can deploy an Airborne Battalion rapidly, but their combat power is limited, and they can’t linger off the shore shy of an actual commitment. The point is that Marines have and continue to have a viable set of missions that the nation depends on the USMC being able to execute. Despite the fact that the Marines and Army have overlapping capabilities, the reality is that neither can do each other’s core missions based on training and task organization.

I think it is a mistake to assume that Iraq is the wave of the future; it is only the wave of today. Before we throw the baby out with the bath water, we need to assess the impact on our “joint” war fighting capabilities. That bright shinny thing on the horizon today may simply be a mirage.

I snipped several lines from your previous post here (quote) - well said Bill. Marines who are wary of this new relationship are not attempting to blow-off the importance of Special Operations and its increased importance in the GWOT. Rather, it is as you stated most eloquently – many are worried we will be sacrificing a core capability that is of vital importance to our national defense in order to address the ‘conflict of the day’ and fill gaps that may well be addressed by increasing the capabilities (manpower is but one example) of those that have been doing this since the early sixties.

The Marine Corps is a “young” force, it constantly replenishes its junior enlisted ranks with new recruits well beyond the rates of the sister services. This is a “good thing” – keeps the Corps’ lean and mean (no pun intended). But, if this relatively small force loses its best SNCO’s and NCO’s to the snake-eater community – there may well be dire second and third order effects. Enlisted leadership has always been the center-of-gravity when it comes down to the wire in accomplishing the missions assigned the Corps.

[Doc.]

I really dont think your losing such a force as maybe you think you are. Its always been known even the average marine has been above the cut. I mean what do all the people always say. "send in the marines!". Being the small force they've always been just tells you that all marines are special. Yet its the Recon Guy's. They get more training to do the more "hairy missions" Yet there still operating with ARmy SF. So why. Why all the back doors that are going on now. Just let recon go to where they should be. I think if the corps loses the community, the Marines will still have F.A.S.T., STA. and the regular grunt, whose still a badass to the enemy. All the Senior NCO's that you say your losing. The numbers aren't as high as everybody think they are. Its always been a marine tradition of putting the responsiblility down to the lowest rank. Im looking forward to working with the other branches learning from the army on how to do what there known for, I dont think your really losing all this, your gaining a lot more. The marines have been left out of the loop so long its about time there clue'd in on everything. The best way to finish and be successful in a job is to be working together giving one anothers best. Lets focus on fighting terroism and not worrying about who's going to adopt our "Uncle sams miss guided children"

[DDilegge]

SOF missions and what the Marine Corps' does as its core competency are two different worlds. There are much bigger issues here than "sexy" missions and years of specialized training. Again, the Corps is small and will still be called upon to perform its traditional missions and can ill afford to lose its best and brightest SNCO's and NCO's to full-time SOF.

Rather than making a significant percentage of our infantry forces full-SOF (that would be 2 1/2 battalions worth out of a force with a total of 24) we should give the training, manpower and other relevant resources to the Corps to assume SOF-like missions that do not require 35-year-old squad leaders. FID (training part) and CAP come to mind here. It can be done and it has been done by younger less SOF trained Marines.

I would agree with the Corps assuming the SOF mission if it could be guaranteed a corresponding quality increase in force structure. Note the word quality – being small the Corps has held fast with the every Marine a rifleman standard for quite some time.

Another guarantee I'd like is that the USMC will not lose any aviation assets in this grand experiment (possibly never to be seen again), and yet another guarantee that USMC SOF forces would be available to the Regional Combatant Commander and any MEU or other MAGTF under its command. Moreover, these SOF forces must be available for the training and evaluation that is part of the pre-deployment work-up.

[Doc.]

The loss of SNCOs, and such. I dont think its going to be coming from the regular grunt units. Marine Times just put out that this loss is coming from the Reconnaisance community, which typically are already snake eaters. along with the transfer techs with the areas of Intelligence, FO's and some reg marines will comprise the support teams of this new units much like the army's B-teams. Yet think of it like this. when the navy made the New SeAL units there were the Udt's, now it wasn't just a switch "okay today your udt's tomorrow your seals." no they comprised of two new teams team 2 in little creek, tm 1 coronado. then over the next few years there were a gradual change. I dont think the corps is going to lose the manpower which they dont really already see. When you go to lejeune, wheres recon, way out in Court house bay, pretty much doing there own thing, as they will be when this transition takes place. Did they say anything about SOTG. will they only train SOcom marines, or will they continue training the average mortor platoon as typically they are now. I'm not sure someone let me know.

[Hansmeister]

Being already in SOCOM I think this might be a very good thing, given that SOCOM has been upgraded from a supporting command to a supported command. The USMC will not lose complete control over these troops, but can shift much of the cost to SOCOM.

However, it won't be long before SF recruiters show up at this USMC unit and try to recruit from them.

[GS]

There is alot more going on in FID than just training some guys in basic infantry skills.

[DDilegge]

There is alot more going on in FID than just training some guys in basic infantry skills.

USMC relieves SOF from certain aspects of FID like "training some guys".

[GS]

USMC relieves SOF from certain aspects of FID like "training some guys".

Dave, FID provides access, losing the FID mission denies access.

[NDD]

Unlike other services, the USMC is not "in search" of a mission or relevance; thus should not go "chasing dollars" with SOCOM. Why would we want to hand over either 700 FMTU / MTT Marines or a 2000 man det comprised of senior staff non-commissioned officers and officers? I would prefer you stand up two more infantry battalions, which I would imagine could be done for a lot less money.

More SOF is not the answer to what ails us in either Afghanistan or Iraq. SOF should remain an ARSOC, AFSOC, SEAL community.

More SOF is not the answer? Is two more infantry battalions the answer? I disagree most wholeheartedly that more SOF is not what is needed. Hearts & Minds are needed, and SOF is the key to H&Ms.

[NDD]

Dave, FID provides access, losing the FID mission denies access.

Very well said.

I doubt it will take the USMC element long to adapt to a new role.

[DDilegge]

The old paradigms of FID and SOF have changed and we have to keep up and not just assume it is business as usual - but on a global and consistent scale.

I fully understand the points raised here concerning FID as an integral part of SPECOPS and agree.

Still, there is not enough SOF to conduct all the traditional missions on a global basis. My suggestion was that conventional forces (USMC in this instance) take over the “less snake-eater” missions (training for one) while SOF continues to do what it does best. Under a JTF, and if well-planned and executed, this relationship could be codified and appropriate doctrine, TO&E, and TTP established.

All that said, it is a moot point. A USMC conference next week will hammer out the details on this done deal. As a good Marines, the USMC will salute sharply and carry out the new mission to the best of it's capabilities. Our nation will not be disappointed...