Ukraine (closed; covers till August 2014)

[JMA]

We haven't been tested. They're playing games in their backyard, which we didn't even bother to declare to be our backyard so far.

That argument rings a bell from 70 odd years ago.

Definition of appeasement:

Appeasement, the policy of making concessions to the dictatorial powers in order to avoid conflict...

Germany and the EU may not have been tested militarily but certainly psychologically.

With Georgia being round one, Round two to the Russians (in Ukraine).

Remember this?

To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. -- Sun Tzu

But it is supreme excellence when nobody will admit you have done anything worth getting excited about while you chew up territories one at a time.

The Ukraine is in the geographical Europe, but it's not in the institutional Europe; it's neither EU nor associated nor NATO. Eurovision Song Contest; I think they participate in that. And European sports championships. Can't remember them participating in European football competitions, though.
An attack on them is not an attack on Germany, France, UK, Poland, Romania, Italy, Spain, ...

Yes, yes, yes... I'm sure you can come up with 100 reasons why what happens in Ukraine has - will have - no impact on Europe... (just like we heard what happens in Syria will have no impact on the Middle East).

You're working on the assumption that "security policy" matters, that is the messing around with military strength in various places. The folks who mistake the small European air tanker capacities for a defence weakness make the same mistake.

This paragraph is incomprehensible...

"security policy" isn't "defence policy". "security policy" is messing around, while "defence policy" is about securing oneself and one's allies (the actual ones, which signed and ratified an alliance treaty).

What do you mean by messing around?

What I will say is that in the case of Germany this is no ability to defend against any military threat either to Germany itself or any NATO or EU ally. So obviously Germany will always underplay the threat and then seek so other solution to the threat - (see appreasement definition above).

Our defences were never tested. We prove to be relatively disinterested in playing games abroad, sure - but that's no "defence" failure or "defence" weakness by a long shot. In fact, it would be a failure if we wasted more resources on preparing for and playing such games than we already do.

If your defences were to be tested - militarily - what would you be able to do about it (without the help of the US)? Zip, nothing, nada.

What is clear from Russian actions in first Georgia and now in Ukraine is that there is indeed a potential military threat - more to some than others - from Russia right now.

Does Germany accept that such a threat exists, to itself or other European states? If so what deterrent does Germany have to prevent any Russian military adventurism? I put it to you that this is the reason why Germany underplays the threat from Russia - as there is nothing they can do about it (without begging the US to help them).

Look at the Americans; they fool around a lot, spend insanely every year on their baseline military budget, spend insanely most these years on additional mil budgets, and what do they get?

The best and most capable militray in the world.

An economy that's failing them, thousands dead, ten thousands crippled, trillions wasted on a pointless war (one of several), avoidable hostility in much of the world, a distraction from challenges at home.

Military expenditure is the scapegoat for 'social' expenditure which is spiralling out of control. But yes misguided wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have not helped.

And then they go on and whine how they foot the bill that almost nobody else wants to exist in the first place. And they complain about how everybody else didn't go nuts as much as they did and paid as insanely as they did on what's largely unnecessary government consumption.

"American spending comprised 72% of all NATO defense expenditures in 2013"

Little wonder they are pulling out...

It's time for Europe to grow up and start to take responsibility for their own defence.

So our defence was not tested; at most our motivation to fool around in East Europe was tested.

Not militarily maybe... but your resolve was and collectively Europe failed. Disgraceful.

Just as the Americans' motivation to fool around in Russia's periphery was tested during the South Ossetia conflict.

... and they (the US) and Europe failed... and set the scene for Ukraine - McCain warned you as did Romney/Palin and you laughed at them. Whose laughing now?

Fact is, Western "security policy" folks have become too greedy and moved to too many places. Some fools took them seriously and actually believed that Westerners were (even) more into the messing around hobby than they actually are. But Americans wanted Georgia as a make-believe part of a faux coalition and as auxiliary troops providers. they never intended to actually help Georgia.

Georgia had and still has the right to national self-determination just as Germany does. In an act of cowardly appeasement the US and the EU/NATO turned their back on them in their time of need.

the peom by Martin Niemller reminds us of the cowadice of German intellectuals back then... seems not much has changed.

Nor are West Europeans fans of the idea of going to war with Russia over a non-allied petty territory such as the Crimea where about 90% of the population prefer Russia over the Ukraine. We did low-level messing around with support for some pro-Western/pro-"democracy" political movements there, and that's about it.

LOL... you mean you bought the results of that referendum? You serious?

The Russians are merely calling some bluffs at times.

As the Germans once did ... and aslo getting away with it.