Is it in the US' Interest to Support Israel?

[JJackson]

Todays top story on the BBC’s site. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7280026.stm

Gaza's humanitarian situation is at its worst since Israel occupied the territory in 1967, say UK-based human rights and development groups.
They include Amnesty International, Save the Children, Cafod, Care International and Christian Aid.
They criticise Israel's blockade on Gaza as illegal collective punishment which fails to deliver security. . .

From William’s last post

I am not sure I understand this. Are you saying that you can appease the Arab extremists by not seeking to assist Israel in its national defence?

The US is not just assisting Israel in its national defence, it is aiding and abetting the brutal subjugation of millions of people over which Israel has control. Guaranteed US Security Council vetoes make it pointless trying to condemn actions which are roundly condemned by the General Assembly and would precipitate a full scale military invasion if they were the Jewish or Christian minority in Iran.

The problem the salafi-jihadist have with Israel is their existence. That's not negotiable. At worst the Jihadists seek to kill every Jew in the Middle-East, and at best crush them back to a stateless ethnic minority. That's what is at stake.

It's an utter myth to suggest that the biggest reason the Arab/Islamist extremists hate the US is because of their support for Israel. They hate the US anyway, especially the Iranians, because of all the US interference in their country, over the last 50 years, and about 200 "good" reasons. The Iraq invasion may well have a lot to do with anti-US feeling. Hating Jews is just their cherry on the cake.

Yes many Muslim’s – and I – have a problem with the existence of Israel, not just the extremists. Two thousand and eight years ago I believe the Romans were in the processes of conducting a census in Palestine, but I do not have the results to hand, however I assume a fairly high percentage were Jewish. About 100 years ago the population was mainly Muslim and about 5% Jewish, today I think we are back to about 75% Jewish (in Israel excluding the occupied territories). Were I a Palestinian I would be wondering if Balfour and friends had the right to set in train the replacement of my people with some other people whose ancestor had once lived here. I am not sure that there is a lot to be gained in picking our moment in time and trying to right the wrongs of our ancestors what we can and should do is look at the current situation and our recent actions and policies and start from there. I would argue that the level of financial/military, and more importantly political, aid to Israel is well beyond the level needed to protect it. I would further argue this level of aid, and cover, is letting it trample the civil rights and any chance of earning a living of those in the occupied territories and is breeding terrorists and sympathy for their cause. Israel is in a relatively comfortable position; all the best land, a per capita GDP well beyond that of their neighbours (and only a distant dream for Gazans), a military equipped with all the latest kit. Half the world’s population live on $2/day and the US is giving nearly that to each Israeli, 70% of Gazans are now on $1/day which is less than the US aid per Israeli. Where is their incentive to negotiate a more equitable arrangement? If the US took the position 'we will help you protect yourselves but you are perfectly capable of standing on your own feet now, we are not going to bankroll you or give you political cover if you oppress your people and we will redirect aid to the occupied territories to help them become self sufficient' that might send a more useful message to both Israel and the rest of the Muslim world and move us closer to a two state solution (a US aim – at least on paper).

Note how Morocco does not care about Israel's existence, as some 18% of Israelis are Moroccans.
Note how Turkey, an Islamic country, is a de facto ally of Israel.

OK I don’t get the 18% bit but I would lay good money that the average Moroccan cares very much about the plight of the Palestinians in the occupied territories. As to Turkey they are a major recipient of US aid and, like Egypt, are aware that not being too vocal re Israel is a necessary evil if they want to keep the money and to pursue more important domestic concerns – controlling the Kurds for Turkey and not having anyone look too closely at their human rights/democratic process for Egypt.

Viewed from an Israeli perspective, US support is not "unconditional." What is more, the majority of Israelis do not want unconditional US support. What they want is the US's assistance to ensure their survival.

99% Israelis know far more about the Middle East, than 99% of Americans and see the US as generally culturally ignorant, especially when it comes to the Arabs, so taking advice/pressure from the US about foreign policy and national survival is not well received.

With their knowledge of ME history do you think the average Israeli would think they got a fair shake if they had been dumped in Palestine after the Holocaust and found them selves to day in the ghettos of Gaza with occasional fuel, electricity, water, health care and no chance of work as no business can survive with unpredictable access to raw material or markets. I am sure they would be fighting a valiant David and Goliath terrorist war against their oppressors as they did at the foundation of their state. The British administrators of the Palestinian mandate had little doubt who the terrorist were.

Adam’s

if the Palestinians ever stop electing terrorists then we can talk about aid.

It was going to be impossible to write this without talking about terrorists so here goes. Why are Hamas beyond the pail and Fatah not? Both have suicide bombers and rockets launched in their name, the difference is that Hamas are not willing to accept Israel’s right to exist because – like me – they have severe doubts that it was within the prevue of a whole load of white middle-aged Christian from some other part of the world to give away their ancestral lands to a bunch of foreigners who were being shipped in from another continent. I also don’t make a distinction between terrorism by individuals, groups or states for me it is a question how you behave not your politics or who you are acting against. I regret that this definition is not very widely applied and many states, and the US is definitely one of them, apply the term in a rather bizarre and arbitrary fashion. Friendly states can get away with murder (literally) and the same or lesser crimes from others are likely to bring a flood of sanctions. Well meaning – if of dubious legality – interventions like Iraq can lead to hundreds of thousands of additional civilian deaths but no one has the power to call the states responsible to account. Some idiot firing rockets, with the targeting accuracy of a big firework, from Gaza is not the main problem and is never going to be responsible for the kind of death toll I would attribute to a political leader of a state like yours or mine.