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Thread: The McCrystal collection (catch all)

  1. #81
    Council Member gute's Avatar
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    McChrystal was done in by a home grown insurgency. A guy like McChrystal does not get to where he was by being stupid so I believe he thought his remarks were off the record. Regardless, he made the comments and allowed a turd like Hastings to use his words against him.

  2. #82
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William F. Owen View Post
    Actually I think the drinking is pretty immaterial. It's really irrelevant. The bit that leaves me open mouthed is why "Rolling Stone" and why anyone ever thought the guy could be trusted?
    "trust" is only half of what you need to learn things you shouldn't know. The other (secret) ingredient is looking harmless.

    It's amazing what you can learn in a talk or even phone interview if you meet the right conditions.

    They did probably simply fall prey to a very good researcher, someone who's probably a great HumInt talent.


    The ingredients of the current mini scandal were likely incompetence (and lack of self-discipline) on part of the McC & staff AND a competent researcher as journalist.

    About "Rolling Stone"; well, maybe McC simply believed that RS was a more competent news source about small wars in the past than more traditional media? Maybe he believed that he needed to turn them around into a more pro-war mood, and that such a young reporter would be impressionable enough if exposed to dozens if not hundreds of officers?

  3. #83
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Grumble grumble.. You shoulda been in the old Corps..

    Quote Originally Posted by Umar Al-Mokhtār View Post
    Because "heavily" in the Marine Corps usually means few walked out under their own power.
    Few? None...

  4. #84
    Council Member Lorraine's Avatar
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    Though surprising in the here and now, McChrystal and his staff aren't the first capable military officers done in by hubris and group think (think: Germans at Calais...) What I find most telling in the RS article, however, is McChrystal's inability to convince BOGs that adhering to the key tenants of COIN (i.e. restraint) are essential for success. If a snake-eater like McChrystal can't influence the troops responsible for implementing COIN, who can?
    "Sweeping imperatives fall apart in the particulars."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Umar Al-Mokhtār View Post
    So? I guess we need to have a sharper clarification of what exactly constitutes "heavily." Because "heavily" in the Marine Corps usually means few walked out under their own power.

    Plus that "scandalous" tidbit probably surprises no one here on SWJ who has served. But it certainly makes great copy for an audience consisting of those primarily in, or fans of, the rock and roll industry, who we all know are preeminent exemplars of temperance, moderation, and sobriety.
    We are not talking about 20 something year old kids here, we are talking about the behaviour of a 4 star general and his staff who were running the war in Afghanistan. Does it happen? Sure. Is it mature behaviour? No.

  6. #86
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorraine View Post
    (think: Germans at Calais...)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorraine View Post
    (think: Germans at Calais...)
    I'm not so sure... the Allies could still land there
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


  8. #88
    Council Member Lorraine's Avatar
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    The Germans were so confident in their analysis that the Allies would land in Calais and had so few dissenters in their senior ranks, that they were completely caught off guard with the landing at Normandy. In a similar vein, McChrystal seems to have held a similar confidence in his own analysis of the RS journalist (in this case, that he could do no serious harm), and his staff seems likewise to have had no sufficient discordance to temper's the General's confidence.

    The examples may be over-simplified, but these two events illustrate how such over-confidence has earned its place in the annals of serious human error.
    "Sweeping imperatives fall apart in the particulars."

  9. #89
    Council Member Umar Al-Mokhtār's Avatar
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    Default Well JMA,

    We no doubt operate on quite different levels of morality codes. First off “heavily” is very open to interpretation. Second, I do not recall the piece including any references to lampshades being worn, people passed out, arrests, public urination, etc... Some no doubt off key singing and few poorly executed dance steps. But no gendarmes.

    What we have is a group of men, soldiers, under a massive amount of pressure day in, and day out. Pressure that one cannot begin to imagine unless they have been there. So they are in Paris letting off steam and drinking. As Wilf noted “It's really irrelevant.”

    But you're right, they're not “20 something year old kids here...” they have responsibilities and stresses no 20 something year old can ever even fathom.

    “The general's staff is a handpicked collection of killers, spies, geniuses, patriots, political operators and outright maniacs. There's a former head of British Special Forces, two Navy Seals, an Afghan Special Forces commando, a lawyer, two fighter pilots and at least two dozen combat veterans and counterinsurgency experts.”

    No doubt plenty of talent at quaffing ale in various and sundry pubs.

    “By midnight at Kitty O'Shea's, much of Team America is completely s***faced. Two officers do an Irish jig mixed with steps from a traditional Afghan wedding dance, while McChrystal's top advisers lock arms and sing a slurred song of their own invention. "Afghanistan!" they bellow. "Afghanistan!" They call it their Afghanistan song."

    Alcohol bonding sessions are older than the Legions, just ask Ken!

    "McChrystal steps away from the circle, observing his team. 'All these men,' he tells me. 'I'd die for them. And they'd die for me.'”

    Doesn't seem like McChrystal was “s***faced” and probably acted more in the role more akin to a big brother watching over his younger siblings to be sure the envelope wasn't pushed too far. The kind of man other men die for.

    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;

    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
    But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
    An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
    An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool,you bet that Tommy sees!

    The error I see here was in allowing a scribbler, who never spent a day in his life in uniform serving his country in war, a glimpse into the intimate world of the combat veteran on liberty.
    "What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."

  10. #90
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umar Al-Mokhtār View Post
    We no doubt operate on quite different levels of morality codes. First off “heavily” is very open to interpretation. Second, I do not recall the piece including any references to lampshades being worn, people passed out, arrests, public urination, etc... Some no doubt off key singing and few poorly executed dance steps. But no gendarmes.

    What we have is a group of men, soldiers, under a massive amount of pressure day in, and day out. Pressure that one cannot begin to imagine unless they have been there. So they are in Paris letting off steam and drinking. As Wilf noted “It's really irrelevant.”

    But you're right, they're not “20 something year old kids here...” they have responsibilities and stresses no 20 something year old can ever even fathom.

    “The general's staff is a handpicked collection of killers, spies, geniuses, patriots, political operators and outright maniacs. There's a former head of British Special Forces, two Navy Seals, an Afghan Special Forces commando, a lawyer, two fighter pilots and at least two dozen combat veterans and counterinsurgency experts.”

    No doubt plenty of talent at quaffing ale in various and sundry pubs.

    “By midnight at Kitty O'Shea's, much of Team America is completely s***faced. Two officers do an Irish jig mixed with steps from a traditional Afghan wedding dance, while McChrystal's top advisers lock arms and sing a slurred song of their own invention. "Afghanistan!" they bellow. "Afghanistan!" They call it their Afghanistan song."

    Alcohol bonding sessions are older than the Legions, just ask Ken!

    "McChrystal steps away from the circle, observing his team. 'All these men,' he tells me. 'I'd die for them. And they'd die for me.'”

    Doesn't seem like McChrystal was “s***faced” and probably acted more in the role more akin to a big brother watching over his younger siblings to be sure the envelope wasn't pushed too far. The kind of man other men die for.

    "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
    But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
    An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
    Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;

    For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
    But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
    An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
    An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool,you bet that Tommy sees!

    The error I see here was in allowing a scribbler, who never spent a day in his life in uniform serving his country in war, a glimpse into the intimate world of the combat veteran on liberty.
    Emphasis added mine.

    Concur.

    Or as a wise old Armor/FAO O6 told me,

    "there are simply some people that don't deserve to hear what you have to say."

  11. #91
    Council Member Umar Al-Mokhtār's Avatar
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    Default Truer words...

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeF View Post
    "there are simply some people that don't deserve to hear what you have to say."
    have rarely been spoken.
    "What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."

  12. #92
    Council Member slapout9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umar Al-Mokhtār View Post
    The error I see here was in allowing a scribbler, who never spent a day in his life in uniform serving his country in war, a glimpse into the intimate world of the combat veteran on liberty.
    The error was they should have gotten the reporter drunk to, then they would have had plausible deniability

  13. #93
    Council Member Umar Al-Mokhtār's Avatar
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    Default Slap...

    LOL to that. No doubt an outstanding tactic, and also be sure to have compromising photos of said scribbler.
    "What is best in life?" "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women."

  14. #94
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default Ain't that the truf...

    Quote Originally Posted by Umar Al-Mokhtār View Post
    (Truer words) have rarely been spoken.
    Well said, Michael.

    As Brother Dave Gardner used to say, "You can't tell somebody who hasn't never..."

  15. #95
    Council Member MikeF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Well said, Michael.

    As Brother Dave Gardner used to say, "You can't tell somebody who hasn't never..."
    Another favorite quote from the ultimate Debbie Downer, Mohandas Ghandi,

    Everything you do in life will be insignificant, but it's very important that you do it.
    It must be done. Every once in a while, I get a nugget of truth in my comments .

  16. #96
    Council Member Fuchs's Avatar
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    You guys do realise that you don't see the problem in the truth, but in the fact that it made it into the news?

    The reporter did his job (an uncommon occurance, for sure) and the officers are supposed to have failed in their job by not keeping the press from learning the truth?

    Sorry, I don't think that this small war is important enough to wish for a press failure. Instead, I'm glad that at least sometimes the press does not fail 100% in its job.


    Do you really prefer a world in which misbehaviour persists hidden out of sight?

  17. #97
    Council Member Lorraine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    You guys do realise that you don't see the problem in the truth, but in the fact that it made it into the news?

    The reporter did his job (an uncommon occurance, for sure) and the officers are supposed to have failed in their job by not keeping the press from learning the truth?

    Sorry, I don't think that this small war is important enough to wish for a press failure. Instead, I'm glad that at least sometimes the press does not fail 100% in its job.


    Do you really prefer a world in which misbehavior persists hidden out of sight?
    NORMALLY, media access to senior military leaders is vetted. The intent is not to keep info from the public, but instead to work to keep facts from being distorted or over-sensationalized. Thus, journalists allowed access have 1) have a history of reporting the facts; and 2) and have proven themselves responsible with sensitive info (from future ops to individual personality quirks).

    I've met plenty of journalists who "got this" and stuck to the stuff germane in their story....and of course, would be granted access again in the future. It's a pretty stable quid pro quo.

    The RS situation strayed considerable from this construct. The magazine sells itself on breaking the rules, war coverage is not a content staple, AND the story was always going to be a profile of McChrystal -- a personality piece. Letting RS have access was not the mistake -- reaching their readership has some merit -- but normally, knowing this, senior leaders like McChrystal and his staff would take extra care in what they said and did front of the RS reporter. This is NO BRAINER. I don't know a senior military leader who doesn't understand this intuitively.

    Given all this, that very smart men like McChrystal and his staff did not act with caution is pretty stunning. Which sends me right back believing these guys were steeped in hubris and group think.
    "Sweeping imperatives fall apart in the particulars."

  18. #98
    Council Member Ken White's Avatar
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    Default I think you missed the point

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    You guys do realise that you don't see the problem in the truth, but in the fact that it made it into the news...Do you really prefer a world in which misbehaviour persists hidden out of sight?
    Can't speak for the others but IMO McChrystal deserved relief not for what he said -- most military people have little or no respect for politicians -- but for astonishingly poor judgment and for tolerating a similar lack of displayed judgment on the part of some of his staff.

    I have no beef with the reporter reporting what he heard and saw -- my complaint, if I had one, would be that the crew was dumb enough to open up too much in his presence. That's a lick on them, not the reporter. Thus I agree with Lorraine's last paragraph.

    My comments and I think those of the others just above are aimed at the fact that Soldiers and Marines drink a lot and act silly on occasion. It's no big thing but it can seem odd to those who do not understand the phenomenon.

    I agreed with the comment that "there are simply some people that don't deserve to hear what you have to say" on that basis. Thus my "you can't tell someone if they haven't never," a quote from a long dead US Comedian. That effectively meant that if they can't understand the phenomenon, that's their problem, not mine...

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
    Can't speak for the others but IMO McChrystal deserved relief not for what he said -- most military people have little or no respect for politicians -- but for astonishingly poor judgment and for tolerating a similar lack of displayed judgment on the part of some of his staff.
    Exactly! - and why grant any access to a reporter from Rolling Stone, except to try and make yourself look cool, or hot, or whatever.
    Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"

    - The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
    - If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
    Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition

  20. #100
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    Default Random bullets

    This whole thing has been a fascinating episode to watch unfold. It encapsulates so many issues in one neat little package.

    1. McChrystal's style of command reminded me of some of the pearls of wisdom from that greatest of military memoirs 'Defeat into Victory'. Slim warned against 'stocking' your headquarters with favorites and fellow travelers as being a disservice to the Army and to your own efficiency; he recommended balance and sufficient rest for commanders - his own daily schedule included healthy recreation and a good night's sleep; he demanded that his staff work and play well with higher and flanking headquarters, remaining firm but always showing respect. He also, parenthetically, didn't believe in the need for special forces.

    2. Guys who succeed in fairly narrow technical fields (pilots, SF, PA,etc) often make lousy staff officers.

    3. Like the recent generation of bankers who (re)discovered the virtues of regulation and restraint, some of our leaders seem to have forgotten that open and transparent access for the media can backfire. If the RS piece had ended up being an admiring and supportive article that made McChrystal and his staff look like Obi Wan and his Jedi Knights, I don't see how that would have helped the war effort. Don't we do cost-benefit analysis any more?

    4. Our military leaders are being sucked into politics by the current fashion for Unity of Effort vice Unity of Command. You can't demand that generals participate in politics and then crucify them when they do so. Put the general or put the diplomat in charge. Stop adding special envoys and the like into the mix. Then guys like McChrystal can stop competing for influence in their own theater. Another lesson we have to relearn.

    5. We'll soon have our fifth commander in Afghanistan in three years. Sort of a reflection of our war effort. Will Petraeus continue to serve as CENTCOM commander, by the way? Is his confirmation by NATO as ISAF commander a done deal? Maybe it's time to let the Dutch have a go.

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