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Thread: Is This The End of The Carrier

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    Default Devil’s in the details...

    Chinese ASBM development: Knowns and Unknowns, Jamestown Foundation, China Brief, Vol. 9, No. 13, 24th June, 2009

    Yet how do Chinese experts envision the “kill chain”— the sequence of events that must occur for a missile to successfully engage and destroy or disable its target (e.g. an aircraft carrier)—beyond the five steps that they commonly list: 1) detection, 2) tracking, 3) penetration of target defences, 4) hitting a moving target, and 5) causing sufficient damage? A single broken link would render an attack incomplete, and hence ineffective. [...]

    While locating an aircraft carrier has been likened to finding a needle in a haystack, this particular needle has a large radar cross section, emits radio waves, and is surrounded by airplanes. Active radar is the most likely ASBM sensor, since its signals can penetrate through clouds. Simply looking for the biggest reflection will tend to locate the largest ship as a target, and the largest ship will usually be an aircraft carrier (if the pre-launch targeting was good).[...]

    How are sensors prioritized and coordinated? Which organization(s) control which sensors (e.g. OTH radar), and how are they used? Is there a risk of seams between services (e.g. Second Artillery, Navy, etc.)? What about problems with bureaucratic “stovepipes,” particularly during general wartime crisis management? How to overlap areas of “uncertainty” from different sensors, and thereby accomplish data/sensor fusion? How to accomplish bureaucratic “data fusion”—a task beyond even the most competent engineers? Finally, which authorities would need to be in the decision-making loop, and what are the time-to-launch implications?[...]

    According to its handbook, the Second Artillery is thinking seriously about at least five ways to use ASBMs against U.S. CSGs, at least at the conceptual level:

    • “Firepower harassment [strikes]” (huoli xirao) involve hitting carrier strike groups.

    • “Frontal firepower deterrence” (qianfang huoli shezu) involves firing intimidation salvos in front of a carrier strike group “to serve as a warning.”

    • “Flank firepower expulsion” (yice huoli qugan) combines interception of a carrier strike group by Chinese naval forces with intimidation salvos designed to direct it away from the areas where China feels most threatened.

    • “Concentrated fire assault” (jihuo tuji) involves striking the enemy’s core carrier as with a ‘heavy hammer.’

    • “Information assault” (xinxi gongji) entails attacking the carrier strike group’s command and control system electromagnetically to disable it.[...]

    Still, this leaves critical questions unanswered concerning how the PLA might envision the basing location, number, employment, and strategic effects of any ASBMs:

    Base of operations. Where would the ASBMs themselves be based? What would be the expected range from the target?

    Nature of arsenal. What would be the relative size of the ASBM inventory? Size might have implications for operational possibilities and willingness to expend ASBMs in conflict.

    Concept of operations. It is one thing to call for ASBM capabilities, but how would they be realized in practice? What would an ASBM firing doctrine look like, and what would be the objective? Target destruction or mission kill (the equivalent of ‘slashing the tires’ on carrier aircraft)? What to shoot at, and when? Would the PLA fire on a carrier if it knew the planes were off of it? Would it rely on a first strike? Would the PLA plan to fire one ASBM, several, or a large salvo? If a salvo, then some combination of saturation (many shots in the same space, to overload missile defence), precision (firing many shots in a pattern to compensate for locating error on the target and to get the CSG in the seeker window of at least one of the missiles), or both? What type of warhead: unitary, EMP, or sub-munitions? How might salvo attacks, or multi-axis attack coordination, be envisioned? Do Chinese planners think that the Second Artillery could handle the mission by itself, or would it be part of a high-low, time-on-target attack with both ASBMs and cruise missiles?

    Concept of deterrence. Deterrence would seem to be a clear purpose of any ASBM development, but what does one have to show to deter? PLA doctrinal publications mention firing ‘warning shots’ in front of carriers—how does the Second Artillery think the United States would respond? How would the United States know it was a warning shot and not just a miss? What if the United States did know and called China’s bluff? Finally, from a technical perspective, how to actually fire a warning shot and miss by an intentional margin (versus having the seeker home in on the actual target)? [...]

    From Chinese sources, it can be inferred that Chinese leaders seek not to attack the United States, but to deter it. They want to defend what they perceive to be their state’s core territorial interests and to ensure a stable environment for domestic economic development. If they develop an ASBM, they would likely hope that it could prevent U.S. projection of military power in ways that are inimical to China’s security interests, which appear to be expanding beyond the First Island Chain. Yet the strength of Chinese equities, combined with vital U.S. interests in East Asia, make ASBM development for this purpose a complex and risky proposition.
    An interesting anecdote; I did my undergraduate studies with a Chinese chap whose father was an officer with the 2nd Artillery. He had a flag hanging in his room...it was that of Imperial Germany (WWI), he was also a member of the university shooting club, he didn’t take the course on nuclear strategy (run, at that time, by Prof. Lawrence Freedman), but he did, IIRC, take the course on technology and war.

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    ArmsControlWonk has an excellent discussion by Geoff Forden on the technical challenges of hitting a CV with an ASBM.
    They mostly come at night. Mostly.


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    A scenario involving full-scale war with China might have to be prepared for, on the grounds that preparation for everything imaginable is necessary. It should be recalled, though, that this is an exceedingly unlikely event. China is a trade-dependent status quo power with enormous domestic economic vulnerabilities and has little if any motive to rock the boat. China's economy is inextricably linked to the dollar and the US economy. Those paying attention will know that CIC is in the process of buying up very large interests in US Real Estate funds... hardly an incentive to war.

    I'd guess that the most likely deployment of this missile is not against an aircraft carrier, but at a negotiating table: you sell thist to Taiwan, we sell that to Iran. In that sense, a powerful deterrent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    A scenario involving full-scale war with China might have to be prepared for, on the grounds that preparation for everything imaginable is necessary. It should be recalled, though, that this is an exceedingly unlikely event. China is a trade-dependent status quo power with enormous domestic economic vulnerabilities and has little if any motive to rock the boat. China's economy is inextricably linked to the dollar and the US economy. Those paying attention will know that CIC is in the process of buying up very large interests in US Real Estate funds... hardly an incentive to war.
    Respectfully,

    exactly the same arguments were made before the Great War/World War I, didn't stop them though, and it that time, the economic dependency of the European powers was greater than that of China (actually, the US is more dependat upon China than the other way around).

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    Some really great food for thought on this thread. Here are a couple more links I think might be illuminating:

    Andrew Erickson, over at the Naval War College is one of the leading open source chinese language experts on the topic, his Blog:

    http://www.andrewerickson.com/2010/0...-missile-asbm/

    And recent USNI Proceedings article:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...e-game-changer

    Countered by Capt Tangredi in:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...-changer-china

    this one is subscriber only, but echoes many of hte comments here critical of "sky is falling" diatribe (A shot I accept across my own bow, and think hard about...) about the end of naval warfare as we know it...

    A broader exploration of carrier vulnerabilities beyond ASBMs:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...erability-myth

    And from one of my favorite naval critics Prof. Milan Vego in:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...ur-balance-sea

    And talking to getting beyond the CSG concept:

    http://www.usni.org/magazines/procee...t-was-question

    Thanks againt to he contributors to this thread!
    "All models are wrong, but some are useful"

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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tukhachevskii View Post
    exactly the same arguments were made before the Great War/World War I, didn't stop them though
    Actually the mercantilist/imperialist system prevailing at that time might almost have been specifically designed to produce a world war. In that environment a rising power such as China is today was effectively shut out of both markets and resource supplies, both of which were wrapped up in mercantile/colonial networks... they would have had to conquer to break into the big game. That's simply not the case now. Look at China's trade balance, why try to change the rules when you're winning the game?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tukhachevskii View Post
    actually, the US is more dependent upon China than the other way around
    Popular myth, but still a myth.

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    Well, I've been gone for a week and there's too much to reply to at this point, but it's interesting this thread is really more about China than the viability of the aircraft carrier. To me, that says something. It's one thing to suggest that carriers are vulnerable in some hypothetical future war with China (however likely that may be), but it's quite another to assert the "end of the carrier" is nigh.
    Supporting "time-limited, scope limited military actions" for 20 years.

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    I suspect that in a full scale war between technologically advanced major powers just about everything proximate enough to be relevant will be to some extent vulnerable. The challenges are to avoid that sort of war and, in the event that this is not possible, to manage the vulnerabilities effectively. Vulnerable doesn't necessarily mean useless or irrelevant.

    The possibility of such missiles being sold to potential antagonists elsewhere (Iran, basically) is as much a concern as an all-out war scenario, and as I said above I would expect the equipment to be deployed primarily as a bargaining chip in various negotiations.

    It would be legitimate to say that this development means a carrier might have increased vulnerability in certain scenarios, but to jump from there to "the carrier is finished" is over the top. The vulnerability is not absolute and there are still many scenarios where this threat is not a factor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
    Popular myth, but still a myth.
    Both would crash badly in wartime, but during peacetime the U.S. IS more dependent on the PR China than the other way around although not as drastically as some people portray it (China finances only a small fraction of the U.S. federal deficit directly).

    The rare earths problem is serious and the U.S.'s material standard of living would drop by several per cent if trade with China was cut.
    China could redirect its industrial output more into its own consumption - as it did to some degree since the beginning of the economic crisis - and it would miss investment goods imports the most.

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    "You need land based air AND carrier aviation because they are reinforcing capabilities - with only one, you limit your options and make the enemy's job easier. With both, you complicate his problems severely."

    This is a key part of the problem with the Carrier Strike Group as currently operated by the Navy - i.e. its a "force package" that can be sent anytime, anywhere to take the fight to the enmey (an outgrowth of the old Maritime Strategy to send them into the teeth of the Soviets's Northern Flank).

    I think the crux of this thread so far is that, properly supported and with an integral role in a well thought out maritime campaign, CVs will be part of the U.S Fleet for the foreseeable future.

    However, the current Carrier Strike Group (doctrinally a CVN, 5 escorts, a Sub and a Supply ship) and even a Carier Strike Force (three CSGs operatating together) is currently at severe risk operating "alone and unafraid" inside the area denial envelope of a country like China.

    The combination of ultra-quiet submarines, long range SAMs on modern destroyers, the Klub missile family (now available in handy ISO container launch systems suitable for making Q-ships out of merchants), new long range torpedoes, and a decent inventory of 4th+ gen aircraft coordinated with satellite sensors and over the horizon radar, linked by a resilient C2 network, provide a substantial threat today.

    The addition of ASBMs in the near future has the potential to increase that risk to the point of unacceptability, requiring CSGs, at the least to be well integrated with land-based air (see the em[pahsis on Air-Sea Battle concepts) or potentially reconceoved as a more distributed collection of more, smaller ships.

    The involvemnt of discussing China leads from the fact that they are currently the only power with the capacity to threaten the CSG today (unless we are really dumb and do something like sail one into the Persian Gulf). The technical threat indeed needs to have a "likleyhood of use" piece attached to it, and those that argue that having a capability to destroy a CSG doesn't matter becasue doing so would cause an escalation dashing any beneifit such a strike miight have in the short term.

    This is a valid line of argument, but addresses the question of "even if there is technology that might kill a carrier, who would have the balls to use it, in what circumstances, and at what cost". That is a much harder question to answer!
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    Council Member Dayuhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuchs View Post
    Both would crash badly in wartime, but during peacetime the U.S. IS more dependent on the PR China than the other way around although not as drastically as some people portray it (China finances only a small fraction of the U.S. federal deficit directly).
    China's financing of the deficit is not the bogeyman it's made out to be, for a variety of reasons.

    I do not at all agree that the US is more dependent on China than the other way around, especially in wartime. The Chinese are sitting on a social volcano of enormous proportions: the income disparities among regions and social classes are staggering and the information flow has irreversibly opened. The aspirations are there and rising and they have to be met. It's as if they have the capitalist genie half out of the bottle. It won't go in and it remains to be seen whether they can get it all the way out.

    The Chinese can keep this situation stable as long as they keep generating massive growth, allowing the industrial coast to absorb money-hungry migrants and maintaining at least the belief that material aspiration can be satisfied. The US can survive a major recession, as we've seen. There is a great deal of doubt as to whether the current Chinese government could. It's likely that a significant economic crisis would generate social upheaval on a scale that would make Tiananmen look like a mosquito bite. The threat to China's rulers is internal, not external, and they know it.

    The Chinese economy is trade-dependent; the domestic economy can't absorb more than a fraction of the output. China suffered less than some expected in the recession because they sell highly cost-competitive goods that hold up well in times of reduced consumption, but trade sanctions in the event of conflict could hurt them enormously.

    In the event of war there would be no need to move US vessels close to China: outbound goods and inbound resources could be apprehended at a distance. Modern version of the old fashioned siege; the Chinese are a long way from being able to project power far enough over the horizon to prevent it.

    In any event the Chinese have no incentive whatsoever to fight the Americans or anyone else: the current order is quite conducive to their interests. The danger, of course, is that the recession that China will someday experience will generate major political instability and produce a reactionary and aggressive government. Not imminent, but not unimaginable.

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