Russian Bronze Statue in Estonia

[Stan]

Jan 25, 2007, TBT staff
On Wednesday, the upper house of the Russian parliament, the Federation Council, passed a resolution asking Estonia to halt its plans to remove a Soviet-Era Red Army monument in Tallinn. “The Federation Council is highly concerned over the adoption of the law on the protection of war graves in Estonia,” the Russian news agency Interfax quoted the document as saying.

This was a major accomplishment for Estonia's new government. The general population was up in arms over the annual tradition of flowering the monument. Dressed in former USSR military uniforms and parading in the general area with Russian flags, as if the Russians still think of themselves as Estonia's liberators. Pretty bold using the name liberator to an army which, after driving the Germans out, stayed on to loot, rape and commit grave crimes against Estonians.

These Russians are actually Estonian citizens (according to their passports that is), who most of the time enjoy their lifestyle in Estonia. Must be that, cause they don't seem to want to return to the Motherland )

The leader of the Nashi (Russian) movement, Vasily Yakemenko, told the media present that if the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier in Tallinn is removed, then Nashi activists will start going to Estonia and take turns standing guard on the monument's former site garbed in military uniform.

While the Russian Federation Council claimed that tearing the statue down would create more divisions in society, the Estonian Prime Minister defended the decision and said just the opposite.

“What respect are we talking about if crowds keep treading on the grave, hold rallies, drink vodka or wait for a trolleybus there? This goes against Estonians' idea of the place of eternal rest of the dead,” he said.

The prime minister added that the bronze statue of a Soviet soldier at Tonismagi in Tallinn has become a monument which is dividing the nation instead of uniting and consolidating it.

[kaur]

Stan Reber says:

"These Russians are actually Estonian citizens (according to their passports that is), who most of the time enjoy their lifestyle in Estonia. Must be that, cause they don't seem to want to return to the Motherland "

Stan, you must not forget the backround of most of those people. Most of them arrived to Estonian territory after USSR troops chased away German troops and started their own occupation. At first those Russians manned security organisations posts (read state terror organisations), but later came labour migrants to man that huge industrial complex, which was initiated from central planners from Moscow. One of the reasons for that migration was fact that thousands of Estonians were sent (mainly elite who survived first deportation in 1940 to Siberia and deadly II WW) to Siberian camps. All of the identy of those migrants was built around the II WW tiumph. Most of them have no idea about real history of Estonia (and I suppose that they really don't care. Despite that they live mainly in Russian propaganda room, because a lot of them watch only Russian TV programs due to fact that their Estonian language skills are too weak to follow Estonian TV channels). Statue of Soviet unkonown soldier in Tõnismäe is symbol for their being here. This is like changing paradigma. This has always been hard. The other problem is connected with the fact that modern Russia is bulding it new ideology. Part of it rests on fight against Nazi Germany. Statue of un-known soldier is part of this narrative building.

Here is quite objective story from Moscow Times.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/storie...01/25/001.html

[Stan]

Hey Kaur !
Did you know that your Cousel ID is actually an Estonian Male's first name ?

In April of this year I will celebrate my 12th year of living and working in Estonia. Not some US Embassy employee hiding behind the "magic forcefield" of the Embassy walls, but right there with everybody. 5 years in the Ministry of Defense and in April, 5 years with the Rescue Services Special Demining Center and Northern Bomb Group.

That said, I can tell you that you will never convince Estonians that anything good will come out of this.

Yes, I am well aware of Estonia's history and Russia's use of "labor Migrants" to offset those Estonians sent to Siberia. I worked right along side of a man at the MOD, now in his early 80s. He was one of those sent to siberia. He cannot for a second explain what happened without breaking into emotional tears and has to sit down.

That's but one of how many ?

This is why I concur with sending that bronze thing back home. The Russian government may need to rethink the situation, before the Estonian public does the dirty deed themselves. Cheap economic threats by the Russians won't work, they depend on Estonia and the trade from Russia is less than 10 percent, thus nothing more than words and indeed a cheap threat.

Lastly, regarding the inability to learn Estonian after 50 years, is just Bravo Sierra. I learned Estonian in 13 weeks in Arlington. I have taken and passed the Estonian Living and Working Permit exam 7 times.

Regards, Stan

[Stan]

that migration was fact that thousands of Estonians were sent (mainly elite who survived first deportation in 1940 to Siberia and deadly II WW) to Siberian camps.

Hi Kaur,
I neglected to mention that my 80-year old friend at the MOD taught high school history and his brother (who later died there), was an actor.

They were then among the "elite" souls from Estonia ?

Lastly, regarding the inability to learn Estonian after 50 years, is just Bravo Sierra. I learned Estonian in 13 weeks in Arlington. I have taken and passed the Estonian Living and Working Permit exam 7 times.

Just to preclude an obvious question to my previous paragraph, Estonia back in the mid-90's would only issue one-year work/living permits to foreigners. Then in 2003, I was given a 5-year permit and no longer have to take a high school-level language and cultural exam

Regards, Stan


Regards, Stan

[kaur]

Stan, I'm Estonian and living in Tallinn. I was just trying to give little deeper backround to your topic that other forum members could understand this problem better. We, as Estonians, and parlamentarians who represent our thoughts, want do this statue removal in civilized way. Enough is enough (especially after Russia started to use this monument in their propaganda offencive) and it's time to take this statue to cemetery where people can bring flowers. At present time it's just symbol of occupation (in the center of our capital) for over 70% of people (this is the percentage of Estonians in Estonia) and real soruce of misunderstanding between ethnic groups. I know a lot of Russians who understand things the same way as we do. The problem is that a lot of them still see things opposite way, which means via Soviet (now Russian) propaganda prisma. There are several reasons. First, Russian TV ja radio, whisch is real PSYOPS maschine. Second, history lessons in Estonian Russian secondary schools (Russia is trying to give them even history books published in Russia).Third, Russian grandparents who tell to their grandchildren their version of history (hallelujah to Soviet Union) etc.

There are elections coming in March in Estonia. In Estonia, there are couple Russian parties. The fact is that they have not won seats in Estonian parliament. To get those seats they had to find painful issues to give new breathing to their institutions. As we know 1 issue parties are not very succsessful in long term and i hope that this rule is valid also here.

PS. My grandfather was police officer in independent Estonian Republic, before II WW. He was taken to Siberia in 1940 in animal carriage. He was there over 10 years and came back. Relatives say that he was never the same man.

[kaur]

It depends how to define elite. If we define it as a class, who as potential to resist and organise insurgency to occupying power, then elite is very large portion of people. I defined elite this way. Among other geographical parts in Soviet Union, occupying force had it's counter-insurgency campaign also in Estonia. One of the solutions was also deportation of people who could resist.

[Stan]

Tervist Kaur !
Ei tea miks, aga ma ju arvansingi, et olete Eestlane

A slightly refreshing approach. I am often used as a perfect example of integration. But then, I take my life and job seriously and my collegues at work expect me to pull my own weight, even if it means in another language and culture.

Regards, Stan

[Stan]

http://www.citypaper.ee/paper/articles/1511/

On a television near you.

This week, Estonia’s parliament deliberates a draft law which would allow penal measures to be applied when symbols of the Soviet Union, Communist Party, and Hitler-era Germany are used knowingly to disturb public order. The Russians, obviously, are not pleased, since the law would seem to enable the immediate removal of The Bronze Soldier monument.

This otta be good ! It will also be a problem; Estonia's 3 chapters of skinheads will have to do something with all those tattoos (from head-to-toe), clothing embellished with "ESTLAND" (Former German military embroidered sleeve emblems from the "era" in question and SS (Super Stock of course).

According to the Russian newspaper, Kommersant, Russian President Vladimir Putin, when meeting the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, remarked: “Aah, Estonia! Estonia wants to win a seat in the front row and gain some sort of advantages on that basis.” Putin reminded Merkel of the German government’s decision to remove the monument of the liberator from Berlin’s Treptow Park, a decision which was not carried out.

Does this mean we have to wait for Germany to go (move bronze) first ?

Regards, Stan

[kaur]

Comment by Jamestown 26.01.2007.

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article...cle_id=2371841

[Stan]

The analogy is inapposite, however, on at least two counts. Germany, a country defeated in war, has accepted this particular symbol of one of the victorious powers in the country’s capital. Estonia, however, did not take part in any war, being simply occupied by two powers successively, the second occupation lasting almost half-century. Second, the notion that Germany’s defeat actually liberated the country from totalitarianism is a notion accepted and internalized by German society, whereas the Soviet occupation -- of which the Soviet Soldier’s Tallinn monument is the conspicuous symbol -- cemented totalitarian rule over Estonia and her Baltic neighbors.

(BNS, Interfax, January 17 through 25; see EDM, January 11)

Hommikust !
Kaur, Thanks for the link. Good detailed information and exposes the typical Russian view. Funny, Vasily Yakimenko threatens to send 300 of "these upstanding Russians" to guard the bronze wonder. He should have done that earlier in the year, then we could have used the police and fences in other parts of Estonia where they were more needed.

Regards, Stan

[kaur]

Tere, Stan!

It's interesting that Russian side is not understanding the issue correctly and overreacting because of that. They think that Estonian side is trying to destroy the statue. No, Estonian the side is talking about moving the statue to the appropriate site, for example military cemetary.

Treptow park with it's Soviet memorial is not located in the middle of Berlin and Jamestown commentary said correctly that there is no analogy between Germany and Russia, concerning history.

Here is my extreme analogy. Soviet soldiers statue in the centre of Estonia's capital, it's like leaving Saddam's statue standing in Sadr city and saying that Saddam's tribe has right to come there to mourn. How does this sound?

[Stan]

Tere Kaur !
Well, we know what happened to Sadam's statue (an M88 crew assisted the removal), and if we wait much longer, the Estonian public will do the same, or maybe even worse.

Have you been to Narva lately ? (The city of Narva is an Estonian/Russian border town complete with old fortresses, cannons and the like).

Somebody put lenin's statue in the farthest eastern corner of the Estonian fortress with his hand high pointing to Russia. In the corner like a bad child in kindergarten !

I had Navy and Army deminers with me, asking about Lenin's location as if he was supposed to be in the corner.

I couldn't answer because I was laughing too much (had few Saku brews as well )

regards, Stan

[Stan]

Jan 30, 2007, By TBT staff
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17224/

Russian foreign minister opposes sanctions against Estonia

TALLINN - Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said he is against imposing sanctions against Estonia in response to plans to relocate the Soviet Bronze Soldier monument.
"Our reaction must be robust and firm, and be aimed at mobilizing public opinion and the political position of European countries in the first place, in order to not permit this kind of blasphemous attitude toward the memory of those who fought against fascism," Interfax news agency quoted the Russian minister as saying.
"However, I would not resort to reacting with sanctions. We are not dependent on Estonia to any such degree as to fear sanctions. Simply we need to put our actions into correlation with the position of those constructive, sensible forces that exist in Estonia," Lavrov said.

This sounds somewhat strange for us here at ground zero, being they had just threatened sanctions and now a reversal ?

Regards, Stan

[Stan]

www.baltictimes.com
Feb 07, 2007 By TBT staff

MOSCOW - Sergei Ivanov, Russia’s deputy prime minister and minister of defense, on Wednesday repeated his criticism of the possibility that Estonia would relocate the Bronze Soldier monument.
“We called things by their right names. I, for instance, called it state vandalism,” Ivanov was quoted by Interfax news agency as saying after a meeting by the State Duma (Russia’s lower chamber of parliament).
Ivanov argued that political posturing ahead of certain internal political events, a vague reference to the upcoming national elections in March, lay behind Estonian authorities’ decision.

Putin: Return buried soldiers to Russia

Russian President Vladimir Putin has called for the remains of fallen Soviet fighters buried under Tallinn’s Bronze Soldier monument to be returned to Russian soil. “If it comes to the demolition of the monument and the reburial of our soldiers’ sacred remains, we are ready to propose to the present Estonian leadership to rebury them in the territory of the Russian Federation,” Putin told the Interfax news agency.

Putin’s comments are a tad premature. The Estonian government is still divided on the issue (The Center Party votes to keep the Bronze thing, while the opposition parties and Reformists (lead coalition partner) want it gone. Parliament passed laws permitting the relocation, but no decision to act on those laws has been made.

Hmmm, who cleans the bird droppings ?

Putin would later point out:

“In many states of Europe, the monuments to Soviet soldiers are not simply standing, they are even, I’m ashamed to say, looked after better than we do it in Russia,” Putin said.

[Stan]

Mari-Ann Kelam comments on the recent and current controversy surrounding the removal of the Soviet war monument in the Estonian capital, Tallinn:

Sunday, 18 February 2007

So often the media emphasis is on what Estonia is or is not doing with the Soviet victory symbol. The focus should be on Russia and its behaviour in this situation. With its vacillating the current Estonian coalition government (Reform, Center and People’s parties) has not handled the problem at all well. But when you really think about it, why should a huge country like Russia raise such a protest, threaten a small neighboring sovereign nation to retain one Soviet statue, a reminder of 50 years of occupation?

Absurd on the face of it, but this shows clearly how today’s Russia is still very much living in and glorifying its Soviet past. Putin’s Cold War style speech in Munich just confirms the situation.

[kaur]

Interview with Estonian president.

http://www.regnum.ru/english/785906.html

[Stan]

Thanks Kaur !
I like Ilves, he will make some significant changes in Estonia.
Regards,
Stan

[Stan]

Looks like he's staying in Estonia

Feb 21, 2007
By Joel Alas
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17358/

TALLINN - Toomas Hendrik Ilves was forced to make his first major decision as president when he last week vetoed a bill that would have forced the removal of the Bronze Soldier monument. The decision was considered inevitable – the bill that sought the statue’s removal was deemed unconstitutional. Its passage through parliament was read only as a populist play ahead of an increasingly divisive election.

[Stan]

Reformists pull off surprise victory, consider dumping Centrists
http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/17446/
Mar 07, 2007
By Joel Alas

The result may finalize one of the most contentious issues in Estonia – the Bronze Soldier monument. The election was seen on one level as a referendum on the Bronze Soldier. While Reform and IRL were outspoken in their desire to see the Soviet statue removed, the Center Party was adamant that it should stay.
Pettai said if Reform and IRL form a government, the fate of the soldier was sealed.
“They were clearly keen on removing it. If they are in power, we could see bulldozers moving in,” Pettai said.

[Stan]

It may truely be on its way home following a Russia vs Estonia football match.

Sadly, Estonia lost 2 nill

Estonian prime minister says relocation of Soldier Liberator monument to begin soon

http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/200...an_prime_.html

TALLINN - Preparations for the relocation of the monument to the Soldier-Liberator in Tallinn are under way in Estonia, Estonian Prime Minister Andrus Ansip said on Thursday.

"The commission for military burials has made its proposals, preparations are under way," Ansip said.

He noted that the parties to be included in his future coalition government have not discussed the issue. "This is not a subject for coalition talks," he said.