View Poll Results: Should FM 3-24 be updated?

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Thread: Time for a FM 3-24: Counterinsurgency Update

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  1. #24
    Council Member Bob's World's Avatar
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    Are we doing this? If so, where? Certainly not in Iraq or Afghansitan... we didn't go to those places to assist governments threatened by insurgency, we went there to replace governments we dislike, and the insurgencies we now face grew from that process. We didn't go there because of insurgency, the insurgency is there because we went there.
    Actually Afghanistan had a very active insurgency in the Northern Alliance vs. the Taliban. We picked side and helped them to prevail to suit our goals against AQ. But every insurgent always becomes immediately a counter insurgent upon "winning." Does the US have a hand in facilitating the current insurgency of the Taliban against the Northern Alliance? Absolutely. There was little insurgency by the Taliban until we enabled the current Karzai regime to emerge. Once it became clear what type of government we had enabled the Taliban insurgency quickly grew in strength to oppose it and our support to it.

    As to Iraq, much like the Balkans under Tito, Iraq under Saddam was a powderkeg of suppressed insurgency. We took the lid off and lit the fuse when we took Saddam out, and then naively were surprised when the whole thing blew up.

    Where exactly do we "assist the government there suppress the insurgent element of their populace through military force, while at the same time enabling those same governments to avoid engaging in meaningful talks with their own people and addressing the very real issues fueling these insurgencies"? Is there any government out there that we support that would talk to its own people and address issues if we ceased to support it? I can't think of any, offhand. In most cases a withdrawal of US support and associated conditionalities would simply generate more vigorous suppression.

    I think you're vastly overestimating our assistance, and the degree to which we enable anything."
    Most of these states call their insurgents "terrorists" and if you think the US is not a big supporter of counter-terrorism programs across our allied governments in the Middle East you are not paying attention. We know these are some of the most despotic regimes on the planet, and yet we support them as by and large they have been willing to work with us in the pursuit of our national interests in the region over the years. This is a model that worked well during the Cold War while that Soviet threat hung over the region, and in an age where information technology was such that these governments could control their people through force and the control of information.

    Times have changed, and the U.S. must change our policies in the region to match the times, and also to bring them more in line with our founding principles as a nation.

    As to the U.S. having the right or the influence to get these governments to address their domestic policies? Excellent point. We certainly have no right, and our influence is shrinking daily. This brings us back to the example of man with the failing heart. If that man was your business partner, you also would have no right to make him change his lifestyle. But you definitely have an interest in him making those changes. He too has an interest in making those changes that he may not fully appreciate. Sometimes your partner needs some tough love to recognize the need for such change. Currently we are enabling destructive behavior. We need to change ourselves, and we need to then apply such tough love with our partners.

    Largely true, but of questionable relevance to GWOT, which is not fundamentally a fight against insurgents. Our COIN fights in Iraq and Afghanistan are collateral burdens, products of fundamentally flawed (IMO) GWOT policy decisions, not an integral part of the supposed GWOT.

    Part of our problem in imposing COIN models, whether FM 3-24 or the Jones model, on GWOT is that it's not essentially a COIN fight: it's not a fight against insurgents. Aside from Iraq and Afghanistan there is no insurgency that requires US intervention in more than a limited FID role, and Iraq and Afghanistan are less the traditional insurgencies that these models are designed to confront (intervention to support an allied government threatened by insurgency) than a natural and inevitable part of the regime change process. The issue is not entirely governance,it's also about foreign intervention.

    We may be looking less at a case of flawed models than at a case of models being applied to situations they were not designed to cover.



    Certainly causation in this case comes from the Philippine government; I think that's universally recognized. Despite our long-term relationship with the Philippine government, though, these groups have not generally acted against US interests, and have acted against US citizens only in opportunistic situations that are less terrorism than criminality. To the limited extent to which anti-US rhetoric is embraced, it's little more than a nod to groups who occasionally send a little money. It's very difficult to draw any causative line between US policy and terrorist or insurgent activity in the Philippines. Both insurgent groups and their popular base in the Philippines generally approve of us; they see us as a moderating influence on their enemies.

    US planners in the Philippines actually did go through a process much like that which you describe. Unfortunately it was very badly done, and considered very few of the factors and influences involved. The outcome was American support for an ill considered "peace process" that was doomed from the start and managed to make things a good deal worse.

    One problem with the approach you suggest is that "diplomatic approaches in Manila" are not going to produce any meaningful change. No matter how diplomatic we are (generally not very) we can't make policy for the Philippine government, nor can we persuade or compel the Philippine government to follow our policy recommendations. It's another country, and our influence is not that great.
    I will not argue against the fact that we have over-engaged, over-reacted in our GWOT response. We did not understand the problem then, and we still do not today. In a recent interview with President Bush he made the comment to the effect that "on 9/11 we were ruthlessly attacked when we had never done anything to anybody." Americans need to look in the mirror a bit more carefully. Ike once said the best thing about Containment was that we in effect contained ourselves. Since the fall of the Soviets we've been feeling a lot less contained, and the list of sovereign countries we have bombed, invaded, or economically attacked through sanctions is growing larger and larger, while the rationale for doing so is becoming smaller and smaller. But this goes to the causal effect of foreign policy on international terrorism. Its complicated true, but we are not blameless and we must evolve. Harder-Faster will not win this contest.

    (As to the Philippines, every GCC was looking for some place to get into the fight. PACOM picked the Philippines as the Government agreed to allow them in under strict constraints and the auspicies of the training exercise "BALIKATAN". If not for 9/11 we would not be there in the manner we are today. I believe that the Government of the Philippines and their security forces have evolved in very positive ways through our intervention, but you are right, this was and remains largely a family squabble between a variety of distinct segments of the Philippine populace and their government. I fear that our presence enables the government to avoid making really hard decisions on substantive changes of domestic policies that could reduce the conditions of insurgency in a more enduring manner.)
    Last edited by davidbfpo; 11-30-2010 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Ditto
    Robert C. Jones
    Intellectus Supra Scientia
    (Understanding is more important than Knowledge)

    "The modern COIN mindset is when one arrogantly goes to some foreign land and attempts to make those who live there a lesser version of one's self. The FID mindset is when one humbly goes to some foreign land and seeks first to understand, and then to help in some small way for those who live there to be the best version of their own self." Colonel Robert C. Jones, US Army Special Forces (Retired)

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