Understood...
The Marine's basic issue of magazines from the supply channels does not allow for ready access/use of those 300 rounds. Any additional ammunition is for resupply during a longer lull.
I've heard more than one person claimed well over 300 among people who claimed close to basic load, but you're right, it is anecdotal. Which was partly why I made this topic.
Understood...
The Marine's basic issue of magazines from the supply channels does not allow for ready access/use of those 300 rounds. Any additional ammunition is for resupply during a longer lull.
Ah... a claymore enthusiast.Originally Posted by Stan
JMA,
Claymores ? Now I'm getting a woodie
It did not take me long to figure out that the means of springing an ambush by tapping the LMG gunner on the shoulder then relying on the accuracy of a bunch of riflemen to make the kills was a pretty bad option.
Rhodesia had it own home-made claymores the mini and the maxi which we used to a lesser extent until the South Africans coped the US M18A1 (or equivalent of the early 70s) and the R1M1 became available to Rhodesian forces.
I was sent along to the introduction demonstrations which was mainly attended by the SAS. The SAS at the time were mainly doing daylight ambushes in Mozambique so were quite happy to position and aim the claymores perpendicular to the path/track and position the ambush party 50 metres from the path. The RLI and all other forces when ambushing did so internally and at night and with 4 man groups/sticks/call-signs.
At night even with an African full moon there was no chance of seeing anything from 50m off the path (we had no night vision equipment). So I adapted the "recommended" siting of the mines as per the image below (which became official policy in the army).
A few notes:
1. By positioning the claymores at 45 degrees from the path the ambush group can get closer to the path to see and then finish off what may survive.
2. Use of paces rather than metres is practical for field work.
3. With a 4 man stick the commander faces forward and has the clacker/initiator, one rifleman faces backwards, the other rifleman and the LMG gunner face down the two directions of the path (beyond the killing ground) with the LMG on the most likely approach side to engage those not caught in the killing ground and discourage any thought of their interfering or any heroics. (Even with two claymores we used Cordex initiated by one clacker.)
4. Additional claymores could be daisy chained outwards with the use of Cordtex (det cord) to include more of the insurgents in the fun.
5. The detail above makes no mention of the clacker (as initiator) as a number of the other units were using the older stuff (minis and maxis) which did not come with a clacker.
6. I set a demonstration using 50 paces of hessian cloth (burlap) at 6 foot high stretched taught between wooden posts. Then fired the claymores as per the detail above one at a time. After firing the first one troopies marked each of the 700 pellet strikes on the hessian with one colour of blackboard chalk. Then I got them to fire the second one and marked the strikes with a different colour chalk. I then positioned a troopie in the killing ground and had two others position at the two claymore detonation points. In this manner we were able to figure out how many strikes an insurgent would receive from either or or both claymores. No survivors in the 40 pace killing ground using two claymores.
7. The siting of the ambush must take into account ground levels, vegetation and rocks and things which may shield areas of the killing ground from hits and in addition and importantly obstacles which would interfere with the explosive gass flow and thus upset the predictable pellet spread.
8. At the initial demonstration we saw the effect of the 3.2mm (1/8 inch) steel ball on ballistic clay and the holes made were equivalent to the cavitation effect on soft tissue. Awesome.
9. For a time I was flown out to all ambushes sprung using a claymore to asses the effect. Again Awesome. (In one case where a less than perfect siting of the mine had happened the lead scout got one pellet in the back. First we found his weapon, a few steps later the sling bad he was carrying then his jacket (he pulled off on the run) with one hole with a little blood then him with a bloodied shirt. Must have made 30 metres before he ran out of luck.)
10. In this way and in a millisecond every living thing in the killing ground pays the ultimate sacrifice. This is the way to wage war.
Interesting discussion.
I believe we have discussed this before here. Our loads were 100 rds minimum (5x20) for riflemen (I always carried 9x20). Machine gunners FN MAG always carried 500 rounds themselves.
I had sight of the Op Dingo Op Order a while ago and noted that riflemen carried 260 rounds (13x20) and 100 (2x50 rd belts for the gunner) and the gunner had 500 rds himself all in 50rd belts.
The idea of the 5.56 was to be able to carry twice the ammo for the same weight (or the same amount of ammo at half the weight). But it seems with the increasing use of auto fire there would be a need to carry in excess of 300 rds to have enough ammo for a good slug fest, yes?
Last edited by JMA; 12-19-2010 at 11:21 PM.
No. That's the wrong correlation to make.But it seems with the increasing use of auto fire there would be a need to carry in excess of 300 rds to have enough ammo for a good slug fest, yes?
Yes that was somewhat tongue in cheek... but it follows my position that the use of auto fire negates the benefit of any weight savings made by selecting a lighter round.
...but do tell, what is the correct correlation then?
There is no increased use of automatic fire in the works, so there is really zero correlation between weight and quantity at this time. The fact that the IAR has a fully-automatic capability, if that is what your are thinking of, has no bearing on the issue.
Here's an interesting recent clip. Seems we can be easily suppressed when there isn't anything really going on, besides our own firing.
http://www.apacheclips.com/media/261...n_Afghanistan/
Jon, can you interpret that for me?
Sigh...
Sactical kill vs. tactical skill...
I don't know Ken. Saw a number of soldiers there not firing their weapons. SLA Marshall revisited?Sactical kill vs. tactical skill...
Last edited by JMA; 12-20-2010 at 06:38 PM.
OK lets settle for increased rate of fire. See on that video and in just about every Afghanistan video that the idea of aimed shots has flown out the window... or at least not being enforced.
Half weight ammo used at twice (or more) the recommended firing rate surely negates the promised benefit, yes?
If you mean making up data to suit a particular research angle, then it's possible.
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
Concur ..., and a great site for promoting exactly what (sans English)Sactical kill vs. tactical skill...
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No, I was talking about SLA Marshall and not the guys who forced through the 5.56mm calibre.
So was I. It's been widely noted that Marshall fabricated a major portion of his "research."
"On the plains and mountains of the American West, the United States Army had once learned everything there was to learn about hit-and-run tactics and guerrilla warfare."
T.R. Fehrenbach This Kind of War
....and almost every insight he ever produced was wrong!!!
Infinity Journal "I don't care if this works in practice. I want to see it work in theory!"
- The job of the British Army out here is to kill or capture Communist Terrorists in Malaya.
- If we can double the ratio of kills per contact, we will soon put an end to the shooting in Malaya.
Sir Gerald Templer, foreword to the "Conduct of Anti-Terrorist Operations in Malaya," 1958 Edition
Marshall's been thoroughly discredited.
Does this mean you are a proponent of firing even if there is no apparent target? Why waste ammo?
I used to bean people with a helmet or a rock for doing that...
Worse sin to me was excessive firing, particularly the occasional full auto firing.
To be honest, some didn't even attempt to see anything!
It would be better if they took cover, used trench periscopes and returned fire only once they detected an opponent.
Even better would have been to add smoke to dust and to change position asap, for this could have been or become a killing zone for heavier weapons.
The video is among those which basically say
"They would have had 20-100% KIA with this behaviour if they had been on the Eastern Front."
The incompetence of small war opposition like the TB ruins Western tactical skills. These people will train and lead the next generation of soldiers!
There's on the one hand a great emphasis on casualty avoidance, but on the other hand many actions aren't guided by survivability at all because you don't need that survivability as the threat is so ineffective.
- - - - -
If I had been an Afghani refugee living in Germany for the last 15 years and returned to Afghanistan only recently to join the resistance:
I would have needed a bolt action rifle with open sights, a few dozen cartridges in clips, an afternoon for preparations, a buddy with an AK and a single magazine and I would have killed half of that squad in the video - easily!
Still digging that one eh Fuchs?it would be better if they took cover, used trench periscopes
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