Quote Originally Posted by motorfirebox View Post
Both of these things already happen. There's a pretty strong likelihood that everyone in this thread has, if they've served in the military, shared a shower room at some point with a gay person. The only difference is that after the UCMJ is changed, there's a stronger likelihood that you'll be aware of it.

And as for the SGM with a hard-on for the younger crowd, come on--you're ignoring that the support and command structure have been enablers for sexual predation for decades (or longer), and you're ignoring that we've had decades to develop tools to deal with it. It isn't suddenly a problem now.



1. The rule is a bad rule. There's no reason to keep it in place. I don't have a problem with prosecuting those who violate it, but the rule should be (and soon will be) thrown out.
2. I'm not talking about catering. I'm talking about making reasonable concessions when there's no reason not to. That's why permanent bases have Pizza Huts and KFCs and Baskin Robbins. These things aren't necessary, but there's little reason not to allow them on post and they can help keep up morale. As for re-upping, again, horse pucky. Retaining experience is, on the whole, good for any organization.
3. I am reasonably certain that the lack of prosecution for blowjobs isn't due to lack of evidence. It's due to lack of willingness to seek out evidence. With blowjobs, there is a general acceptance that the rules are stupid and prosecuting them would not only be silly, it would in all likelihood be bad for the military. Professional people, whether in the military or the civilian world, have a reasonable expectation to be allowed to lead their private lives as they see fit. Again, obviously, the needs of the military override that. I don't see the need, here.

Your position is that the rules are the rules and they should always be followed. Well, that's one way to do things, but since you're removing human judgment from the equation, you have to be extra careful that the rules actually work. Guess what? Article 125 doesn't work.
1a. Your point is that the rule is bad and should be thrown out.
1a. Response: I'm unclear as to which rule you are referring, but I'll address the possibilites. Article 125: I would suggest reading the MCM and Article 125 before it is labelled "a bad rule" and thrown out. If it goes into the trash, then charges for forcible sodomy without consent, sodomy with children under 16, and sodomy with children under the age of 12 are also discarded.
Article 92: Discarding this article would make it permissible to disobey any order or regulation.
Again, this is not about someone's sexual preferences. This is about whether a soldier will follow orders, even when they do not like the order.

2a. Your point is that retaining experience is good for an organization.
2a. Response: "Experience" was not defined. Certainly the military would not want to retain someone who is experienced in defrauding the government or stealing military supplies. The military would want to retain someone who is experienced in areas that contribute to its mission accomplishment. At this point the discussion is going to evolve into a discussion of "filling a billet" vs "adopting a way of life" and it should probably go to another thread.
2b. Your point: Having establishments, like Pizza Hut and KFC, on base is good because it is good for moral.
2b. Response: This will also evolve into a side discussion, but your reasoning takes us into the debate of whether Gen. Charles Dunlap was correct. http://www.carlisle.army.mil/USAWC/P....cfm#index1992

3a. Your point is that "It's due to lack of willingness to seek out evidence."
3a. Response: Your accusation that the legal systems of all four branches (I include the Coast Guard) are jointly deciding to not investigate and prosecute heterosexual violations of Article 125 is baseless.
3b. Your point is that it would be bad for the military to prosecute heterosexual violations of the UCMJ.
3b. Response: It is never morally incorrect to prosecute a violation of the UCMJ. It is a code of ethics and it must be upheld. Failure to uphold one portion places the rest in jeopardy.
3c. Your point is that military professionals should be able to lead their private lives as they see fit (according to the needs of the military).
3c. I completely agree. This is what DADT permitted. No one will ask about your sexuality (hetero or homo) and you will not talk about/commit acts that will disclose your sexuality. Service members were permitted to operate a private life as they chose, so long as they did not run afoul of other articles and orders. If the act or statement becomes public then it becomes an Article 92 violation and is punished.

4. Your point is that Article 125 doesn't work.
4. Response: Our opinions aside, as they matter little, SCOTUS and the USCAAF have upheld Article 125 and the UCMJ as constitutional.