Arizona Rep. Giffords' shooter called very disturbed.

[91bravojoe]

The "very disturbed" and the political are 100% overlapping here. Beyond any rational doubt.

From the AP story today:

"Giffords has drawn the ire of the right in the last year, especially from politicians like Sarah Palin over her support of the health care bill."

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MNET1H6AEP.DTL

Sharron Angle, last year's Tea Party Queen in the Senatorial elections, babbled about "Second Amendment remedies" for her opponents.

That's the environment in which this occurred. The sequellae includes the SarahPac ad with rifle sites, naming Giffords as a functional target.

Giffords' tea party opponent in the 2010 election had "shoot a fully automatic M16 with Jesse Kelly" in his internet and print ads. Scrubbed now from the web page.

Who responds to material like that?

The manifest mental illness of the perp obviously highlights the political content. Both at the macro level, and at the individual candidate level, the right wing pursued explicit behavior which would agitate the unstable.

The more you focus on "disturbed", the more you have to examine what is likely to trigger a disturbed person.

Tort definition of intent: you INTEND the likely consequences of your acts.

[Kevin23]

I personally don't think political motivations or influence had anything to do with the horrific shooting in Tuscan on Saturday, as the main suspect in question seemed to lack any coherent political beliefs. Which leads me to personally believe that he would just have easily taken shots at Senator John McCain or Governor Jan Brewer if they had been the one's holding the constituent meeting and not Representative Gifford.

That being said when I first heard about the whole incident in Tuscan Arizona and the types of individuals who lost their lives or who were injured, I thought at first it might have been a drug cartel hit given the initial profile of the shooter. As well as speculation as accomplices/and or multiple gunman.In addition, to the fact that the type of people targeted were high profile individuals who been involved with issues regarding drug-related violence both within the US and across the Southern border.

[91bravojoe]

Nobody is saying that the perp had connected or organized 'political' thoughts.

The override is that an atmosphere was created in which such an individual would be somewhat more likely to turn to irrational violence(this is Arizona, remember) because the concept of irrational violence has been constantly adverted to by the screwball right-wing.

[J Wolfsberger]

The override is that an atmosphere was created in which such an individual would be somewhat more likely to turn to irrational violence(this is Arizona, remember) because the concept of irrational violence has been constantly adverted to by the screwball right-wing.

Conversely, I could blame the Left wing blogs that "targeted" Rep. Giffords for insufficient fidelity to their policy goals. I could assert that a certain prominent politician gave him permission when he told his supporters "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

I would be wrong to do so. As is anyone who asserts that somehow this tragedy is the fault of people they disagree with politically.

As more information emerges, the perpetrator looks increasingly likely to be suffering from schizophrenia. If that is the case, then he interprets any speech, writing, or interaction in any form in his reality, not ours.

News reports say he isn't cooperating. If he is, indeed, schizophrenic, it's more likely that he's blocked any recollection of his actions, so we'll probably never know what happened in his reality to lead him to this violence. If that ever does come out, it won't be political, it will be something along the lines of "Buddha used the CIA mind control ray to tell me to kill Rep. Giffords because her unintelligent use of grammar was keeping me from nirvana." Because that is, unfortunately, how the schizophrenic mind works.

[slapout9]

Conversely, I could blame the Left wing blogs that "targeted" Rep. Giffords for insufficient fidelity to their policy goals. I could assert that a certain prominent politician gave him permission when he told his supporters "If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun."

I would be wrong to do so. As is anyone who asserts that somehow this tragedy is the fault of people they disagree with politically.

You would not be wrong. You would be right. Radical thoughts on the left and the right can act as triggering events when dealing with disturbed individuals.

[Presley Cannady]

You would not be wrong. You would be right. Radical thoughts on the left and the right can act as triggering events when dealing with disturbed individuals.

So can Jodie Foster.

[slapout9]

So can Jodie Foster.

Sure can. That is why the stalking element is so prevalent in these types of cases. They begin to obsess on certain people.

[J Wolfsberger]

You would not be wrong. You would be right. Radical thoughts on the left and the right can act as triggering events when dealing with disturbed individuals.

Slap, the point I was making is that anything can be a triggering event. As Presley points out, it could be Jodie Foster. As I pointed out, it could be Buddha speaking to him. Or he could have decided that he was called to prove that no one was safe at Safeway. It isn't possible to predict.

Claiming he was motivated by political speech, left or right, is applying normal standards of reasoning and behavior to his very private reality. That's not possible, either.

[slapout9]

Slap, the point I was making is that anything can be a triggering event. As Presley points out, it could be Jodie Foster. As I pointed out, it could be Buddha speaking to him. Or he could have decided that he was called to prove that no one was safe at Safeway. It isn't possible to predict.

Claiming he was motivated by political speech, left or right, is applying normal standards of reasoning and behavior to his very private reality. That's not possible, either.

Jay, gotta leave for a while. Will respond later.

[Ken White]

The "very disturbed" and the political are 100% overlapping here. Beyond any rational doubt.
...
Who responds to material like that?

You state:

...Both at the macro level, and at the individual candidate level, the right wing pursued explicit behavior which would agitate the unstable.

The unstable will react to prompts from either side -- even hard over left leaners recognize that (LINK) and apologize for it -- and as you also said:

The more you focus on "disturbed", the more you have to examine what is likely to trigger a disturbed person.

True and one never knows precisely what triggered an alleged radical who had allegedly had many leftist tendencies but was, mostly, just a sad mentally aberrant kid (LINK).

...The sequellae includes the SarahPac ad with rifle sites...

Are those rifle sights or are they simply targets? A lot of folks including the media use terms like target for many things (LINK). Fortunately, as that article shows, some people can apply some common sense.

Regardless, as you also said:

Tort definition of intent: you INTEND the likely consequences of your acts.

As any Lawyer will tell you, intent is hard to prove. As any shooter will tell you you, those aren't very good representations of the cross hairs in a telescopic sight. As Kurtz said, tossing blame around is easy -- and generally incorrect...

And as I said earlier, the bottom line is that this is not a political discussion board -- so while a brief unbiased comment on political ramifications is acceptable, even desirable, we should save the leaning in either direction politics for elsewhere. That means NOT 'intending' to provoke politically biased responses.

Thanks.

[Pol-Mil FSO]

The media is making too big a deal of this. It was a tragedy, and I strongly hope that Congresswoman Giffords makes a full recovery and runs for Governor so that we can have some responsible leadership in this state. However, comparing Tucson to Dallas (Kennedy assassination) is ridiculous, and comments about the shooter's alleged politics as well as calls for gun control are, in my judgment, both misguided and unseemly. People will get over this trauma and the incident pales in comparison to what occurs in Iraq and Afghanistan on a weekly basis.

Where was the threat assessment? Why wasn't one of the Congresswoman's staffers armed? (As of five months ago, anyone can carry a concealed weapon in Arizona without a permit.) The Congresswoman was the target of multiple threats, just completed a nasty campaign, and had her local office vandalized because of her health care vote. The House of Representatives Sergeant-at-Arms Office should also be asking themselves some questions. They can't be expected to assess security threats in 435 separate districts but they should be providing personal security assessment briefings to incoming members.

It was a stroke of luck that the shooter used a 9mmP caliber pistol rather than a 40 S&W or a 45 ACP caliber pistol. I buy powder and primers from the store where he reporteldy purchased his handgun and he could have easily selected from the display shelf a Glock 23 (40 S&W) rather than the Glock 19 which he used to commit his crimes. The number of dead would have likely been greater if he had used a more powerful caliber. This should be another argument (as if anymore are needed) for the U.S. military to change its handgun caliber from 9mmP to 45ACP.