More Piracy Near Somalia

[motorfirebox]

Why did it become undone so easily?

Apparently judges, schools, and doctors aren't much of a match for invading armies sent specifically to destroy them. Who knew.

I do not advocate siccing the CIA on either. The entire is issue is an African and to a lesser but contributing extent, Europe's, problem. It is not a US problem other than to provide generic anti-piracy patrols which we do and have done worldwide for over 200 years. That commerce thing...

The US has a habit of making problems out of things which are not its problem. That habit, in fact, is a large part of the reason the IUC no longer exists.

As Bob's World noted it is also a law enforcement problem and attempting to make it a 'humanitarian' (or an Intelligence / military / political) problem will only create bigger problems.

Great. Let's go after the biggest criminals in the region, then.

Not really any debate. Getting up one's hopes to see 'em dashed is a proven depression bringer.

Yes. I think it will be fairly depressing--to those who are still paying attention by that point--when piracy off the Puntland coast rebounds and continues after we've ventilated a bunch of pirates and then left.

Your sources and accuracy of information are enough to make your point. However, they're still opinions and count no more than do the opinions of people who have some experience in the area.

I wouldn't claim they do. But the opinions I've presented are possessed of actual content. They opine in detail, and give reasons and evidence for their opinons. They present their side of a debate. The opposing argument has, thus far, contained little to no content. It is merely opinion, and while I am more than willing to take into account the opinion of someone who's been there and done that, I'm not going to accept an argument that consists entirely of "I've been there".

What I am suggesting is that the problem is complex and that just fixing Somali governance and eliminating illegal fishing and dumping will not reduce or eliminate it. Nor will going in and shooting up the place. One of the US' worst failures is the constant application of western thought and mores to problems not of the west. That does not work, it gets us into trouble constantly (see Viet Nam, Lebanon, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq...).

Using our various adventures in those regions as a template for westernity, I don't see that my proposition meets the criteria to be considered western thought. I'm largely advocating the opposite of what we've tried in those regions.

Yet again I notice a 'we,' undefined to the point I can ask -- what is your contribution to this plan going to be?

I'd say "about the same that others are going to contribute to the shoot-em-all plan", but around here, I might actually come up short.

Let me repeat something Stan wrote:""If you think a good deed will make us look good in the eyes of the Somalis or any other African, then I submit you have no clue what you’re talking about."" I have to agree and will further expand that to say it applies to at least 80% of the world including other nations and their people. There would be some who'd applaud the effort, even if it failed -- but the vast majority of Nations would (rightly) question "Why are the Americans getting involved in this?" and think, yet again and with some justification, that we're nuts...

I'll agree that doing nothing would, in sum, have as much net positive effect as going pirate hunting.

I was talking about our strategy, strategems, policy, bag of tricks or whatever concerning the immediate problem, pirates.

You were responding to my summary of all our past strategies in Somalia.

The construction of your first sentence in the above quote is interesting. It can be turned 180 degrees to the effect that Motorfirebox hasn't given the nature of piracy in the area that used to be Somalia enough study.

I don't recall drawing any comparisons to solar habits with regard to the horizon.

No, I view you as a well intentioned guy who sees the good in people and just hasn't come around the realization, a realization that actually kills a very small piece of a good man's heart, that there are people who are black soul destroying vortexes of evil who can't be saved or reasoned with.

That's a bit melodramatic.

When you said something along the lines of "nice going Somalia" it was almost like the disappointment of a defence lawyer learning that his client just killed another one.

Gleeful at the prospect of further fees? I mean, come on--berating other countries for taking advantage of Somalia and Africa in general does not equal a belief in the inherent goodness of mankind, much less the inherent goodness of a bunch of guys who can't stop shooting each other long enough to form a government.

I am puzzled by your equating the term "mass slaughter" to the breaking of Somali pirates at sea by force. There just aren't that many pirates at sea at any one time and their pattern of behavior is when they are actually shot at or threatened with boarding most all of them give up right away, just like criminals normally do. I just don't see any mass slaughter there.

There is a real dichotomy between what you want to accomplish, what it would take to accomplish it, and what you're proposing. How do you plan on finding all those pirates out at sea?

Please address the point also I raised when I contrasted the two statements you made. In one you say the pirates are motivated mostly by something other than greed, and allude to something along the lines of subsistence level plundering to avoid starving. In the other one you say that Puntland is "swank" by Somali standards with a gov and schools and such. The piracy started big in Puntland. But if Puntland is better off than other parts of the area that used to be Somalia, why did it get big in Puntland rather than the other areas. This does not compute for me.

I... did address it. Puntland is pretty swank by Somali standards. That means that some people are slightly less poor than the average. If the rest of Somalia is Ciudad Juarez, Puntland and Somaliland are Mexico City. If you're living in Mexico City, you wouldn't say you were outside the range of cartel violence--but you do see less of it than you would if you lived in Juarez.

So, yes, people can still starve to death in swank, sunny Puntland.

Could you provide a reference concerning widespread starvation in Puntland? You keep mentioning it. It is might be just as you say but I would like to read it.

It's easier to find news on Somalia in general, but there's some to be found on Puntland specifically.

But if you have to take on guys like that all at once about the nature of Africa or genuine bad men, you might want to consider why you are having to take on all those guys at once.

There frankly hasn't been much to engage--most of the actual engagement has been from Ken. I'm not trying to insult anyone, here; I respect the opinions of people on these boards more than most of the people I know. I don't post often because, for the most part, I come here to learn.

In this case, though, people here have simply said "X is bad", whereas Ken has said "X is bad because of A, B, and C." I'm not convinced by many of Ken's arguments in this thread, and I wish he'd go on to D, E, and F, but he's made arguments that can be argued. Most of the other posts have offered statements that can be given either a go or a no-go. While I respect the accumulated experience behind those statements, I'm not willing to accept them at face value on a discussion board.