Human Terrain & Anthropology (merged thread)

[Stan]

Hey Matt,

You know, Malinowski had the Slavic soul so he was working at an advantage. It’s true, though, just being there doesn’t mean you get it. And every field linguist I’ve known has a clue about local life in the places they have worked even if they hadn’t had the bit of formal training in socio-cultural theory per se. (On a tangent, I took a couple of courses from a linguist who is a Kinyarwanda speaker. He seems to think I’m pretty much a moron, not without reason. )

I guess my original point would be that we can't just take an ordinary soldier and hope to have an anthropologist. As bleak as some conclude the HTS program is, there are just as many of us that fully applaud their contributions. That "edge" may in fact work out to saving lives on both sides of the fence.

As far as your DIE verbs go, ask that Kinyarwanda speaker to battle with Lingala with but 800 words and phrases. Tons of vocabulary doesn't always translate into difficult

As an aside, I'm glad you finally met Marc. We have battled with wit and brawn with no equal. It's now on you

[jmm99]

ethnography (interviewing people, establishing rapport, communicating "stuff") - in my (former) world, that may or may not have involved shaping (manipulation) of the "stuff" to meet the requirements of my client's end goals determined by the client's policy. "What is Truth ?" asked Pilate - and received no answer. Shaping (manipulation) may be used to support good, indifferent or bad policies. Anthropology also may be used to support good, indifferent or bad policies.

ethnology (cross-cultural comparison using textual and non-textual artifacts of various kinds) - been there, done that and do it here; and admit to the shaping (manipulation) of the resultant product. Again, the issue becomes whether the methodology is used in support of good, indifferent or bad policies. That opens up a new endeavor - as to which, one might pursue further adventures in ethnography and ethnology, or engage in adventures in babysitting.

Stan: The interpreter thing is interesting - and sometimes one gains a personal insight. Flashback: I'm with a gal and her parents (the dad having been a partisan in the Winter War after the Russians burnt the family farm; and then a regular in the Continuation War) to talk about legal options. The gal (very well educated) offered to translate - which was wise, considering my lack of any fluency in the spoken language (esp. real Finnish). I was surprised on how often "mutta" (but) occured - translating something like: on one hand ..., but on the other hand ... (yksilla kadella ..., mutta toisaalta ...). I sounded like some legal academic.

ganulv: While Supplex rings my bell as a chemist (and I've a little Dupont stock), I buy my wardrobe at the Family Dollar Store - no fancy Yuppie stuff. Besides, the only hot and muggy places up here are saunas - no clothes worn there.

I'd never argue anthropology with Marc; he's the one who keeps bringing up things like Hittite Law (as to which, he clearly needs guidance ). No point in fighting - our ancestors did enough of that in 1755-1760 (Lake George and the Plains of Abraham, wins for Marc's; Fort William Henry and Le Moulin a Vent, wins for mine). They then went on to join in building a nation, Canada - although admittedly, a few others did help in that process.

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

Hei Mikka !

Stan: The interpreter thing is interesting - and sometimes one gains a personal insight. Flashback: I'm with a gal and her parents (the dad having been a partisan in the Winter War after the Russians burnt the family farm; and then a regular in the Continuation War) to talk about legal options. The gal (very well educated) offered to translate - which was wise, considering my lack of any fluency in the spoken language (esp. real Finnish). I was surprised on how often "mutta" (but) occured - translating something like: on one hand ..., but on the other hand ... (yksilla kadella ..., mutta toisaalta ...). I sounded like some legal academic.
Regards

Mike

Interpreters are locals and they are prone to what all locals say and do. Who wants to look like a prime idiot in front of a bunch of Yankees
But, if you want to ever walk away with even a clue as to what was discussed and the context of the conversation - you better up your game.

My first real Finnish sauna was with a great bunch of Finnish bikers. Being beaten with soaking birch branches is definitely an acquired taste thing. I got more out of that 2-hour session than I would have in 10 years talking to Finns. My Finnish, BTW, sucks

I just completed interviews with the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency (MSB) to see if we had some candidates for tours in Africa with the UN. Out of 77 candidates, I came up with 6 I felt met the grade. During the interviews two of them decided to use the "N" word to describe Africans. Having just been read the riot act (death by powerpoint) on conduct inside the MSB. What the HR folks from Sweden didn't know, was that the N word is merely part of the Estonian language and means very little - certainly not racist. What the Estonians didn't know was that their tiny country and secret language was taken completely out of context.

While I was able to defuse the situation I made it a point to slam home the often conceived version of a simple mistake with languages and cultures.

I could have done nearly anything at the Finn's house and sauna and little would have happened. Finns are a tolerant and friendly bunch. I doubt that such acts and slights in the Sub-Sahara would be so easily forgotten.

Regards, Stan

[jmm99]

from Stan
Finns are a tolerant and friendly bunch

but not always accurate.

I could point you to commentary by an African-American who lives in Helsinki - racial slurs of him vary (use and non-use thereof) from person to person.

On the other hand, Finns are used to their Black or Dark Finns (my mother was one - she'd tan very dark even in what summer we have - despite the blue eyes), which is said to be because of the 25-30% "Eastern" genetic component that runs in most Finns.

Then, there is the Swedish-speaking Finn vs Finnish-speaking Finn thing, which goes beyond all reason. It supposedly is gone - along with other 19th and early 20th century things. But, it is far from gone if enough beer goes down the throat of a still dyed in the wool "Fennoman" - attestation by fairly recent personal experience.

Now, is the Stan-JMM conversation ethnography or ethnology (JMM being something of an artifact) ?

Regards

Mike

[Stan]

Now, is the Stan-JMM conversation ethnography or ethnology (JMM being something of an artifact) ?

Regards

Mike

Hey Mike,
Without a doubt ethnography

[ganulv]

Hey Matt,

I guess my original point would be that we can't just take an ordinary soldier and hope to have an anthropologist. As bleak as some conclude the HTS program is, there are just as many of us that fully applaud their contributions. That "edge" may in fact work out to saving lives on both sides of the fence.

I guess my reservation is that some seem to conceive of socio–cultural knowledge as a panacea. If the expectations are reasonable I could see how having an anthropologist around on the ground could help in this way: anthropologists are aware that there is always more than one way to do things as well as of the fact that variation in social life isn’t infinite. An anthropologist could conceivably 1) help steer troops on the ground away from understanding the locals’ motivations too much from their own (the troops’) point of view as well as 2) help save some time making assessments of communities because they can immediately eliminate a lot of options that someone cutting things from whole cloth might consider in their initial assessments.

I remain skeptical that anthropologists working with troops in an area where there’s an insurgency underway can elicit consistently reliable opinions and detailed pieces of information from the locals. One of the things an ethnographer usually needs to get at those is trust, and that takes time even when everyone isn’t paranoid (and with good reason!) about everyone else’s real intentions. I hope no one is under the impression that ethnographers can get what an interrogator can in those contexts, just without the consequences of running interrogations.

I’m beyond skeptical about efforts at directed culture change. I’m not saying it can’t be done successfully. I’m not convinced anyone knows how to do it predictably, though. And I just don’t believe the U.S. is ever going to see a long term culture change project through to the end, and that’s a recipe for things ending up more chaotic than before when the project is left off. Reconstruction is—or at least should be, IMHO—the type specimen for such as that.

As far as your DIE verbs go, ask that Kinyarwanda speaker to battle with Lingala with but 800 words and phrases. Tons of vocabulary doesn't always translate into difficult

Noun classes, always a party… With some vowel harmony and a little tonal morphophonology as party favors!

[Stan]

Hey Matt,

I guess my reservation is that some seem to conceive of socio–cultural knowledge as a panacea. If the expectations are reasonable I could see how having an anthropologist around on the ground could help in this way: anthropologists are aware that there is always more than one way to do things as well as of the fact that variation in social life isn’t infinite. An anthropologist could conceivably 1) help steer troops on the ground away from understanding the locals’ motivations too much from their own (the troops’) point of view as well as 2) help save some time making assessments of communities because they can immediately eliminate a lot of options that someone cutting things from whole cloth might consider in their initial assessments.

A good point and something the Army often does to their FAO and SF with extremely high (unobtainable) expectations. I saw the use of HTS as a one-person team working towards the same goals, but not hanging out with a bunch of armed men. In the end the anthropologist is yet another tool in the kit bag and not construed as the answer to everything culturally-related. The anthropologist is also a great mentor and instructor. Where better to learn and practice than in the country in question.

I remain skeptical that anthropologists working with troops in an area where there’s an insurgency underway can elicit consistently reliable opinions and detailed pieces of information from the locals. One of the things an ethnographer usually needs to get at those is trust, and that takes time even when everyone isn’t paranoid (and with good reason!) about everyone else’s real intentions. I hope no one is under the impression that ethnographers can get what an interrogator can in those contexts, just without the consequences of running interrogations.

That I think is the problem with our command (upper echelon) - when and how to employ your best assets should be left to the folks on the ground, and even then only with adequate training. For example: We have explosive detection dogs, but they are not the cure-all and certainly will not respond passively during a fire fight or under duress.

I’m beyond skeptical about efforts at directed culture change. I’m not saying it can’t be done successfully. I’m not convinced anyone knows how to do it predictably, though. And I just don’t believe the U.S. is ever going to see a long term culture change project through to the end, and that’s a recipe for things ending up more chaotic than before when the project is left off. Reconstruction is—or at least should be, IMHO—the type specimen for such as that.

Both Marc and I were subjected to a virtual cultural training video years ago. While we both had some serious reservations and both concluded it was not ready for prime time, it is out there and ... Well, dunno
Any skepticism about the HTS would soon seem mediocre once you took the cultural challenge

[davidbfpo]

Hat tip to Circling the Lion's Den for this item:

The US Army's Military Intelligence Professional Bulletin for Oct-Dec 2011 is a special issue devoted to the subject. Some of the articles relate to Iraq, but several are devoted to the HTS in Afghanistan, including case studies of Rural Human Terrain in Kandahar, engaging local religious leaders in the Central Helmand River Valley and articles on bilingual data collection and HTS support to Information Operations.

Link to the Bulletin's issue:http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/army/mipb/2011_04.pdf

...one of the papers notes: "Difficulties integrating HTS teams into Army units arise because the HTS program brings together two professions (social science and military studies) that tend to operate within different problem-solving paradigms, speak different languages, consist of different personalities, and have misconceptions one about the other. Academia is stereotyped as theoretical, long winded, and perhaps of no practical use at the moment. Military studies are stereotyped as too practical, laconic, and operating under the slogan that a 70 percent solution is good enough right now in the battle space."

Link to Circling:http://circlingthelionsden.blogspot....ain-teams.html

[ganulv]

Hat tip to Circling the Lion's Den for this item:

Link to the Bulletin's issue:http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/army/mipb/2011_04.pdf

Link to Circling:http://circlingthelionsden.blogspot....ain-teams.html

Many thanks for these links. I scanned the bulletin just now and will aim to read a couple of the articles tomorrow.

What I have seen of the bulletin so far reinforces my impression that the U.S. military and civilian contingents in Afghanistan seem to be fairly ignorant as to the basics of agriculture. (That's not a criticism. In my experience few Americans know much about where the food they eat comes from.) Am I way off base here?

[marct]

What I have seen of the bulletin so far reinforces my impression that the U.S. military and civilian contingents in Afghanistan seem to be fairly ignorant as to the basics of agriculture. (That's not a criticism. In my experience few Americans know much about where the food they eat comes from.) Am I way off base here?

That matches my impression, and in more areas than just agriculture. Still working through the articles, though....

Cheers,

Marc

[ganulv]

but I still find the case study of the village of fig farmers in Kandahar where no one knew rotted manure is fertilizer to be absolutely bizarre. I have to wonder what you would find if you were able to scratch beneath the surface of that one.

[JMA]

What I have seen of the bulletin so far reinforces my impression that the U.S. military and civilian contingents in Afghanistan seem to be fairly ignorant as to the basics of agriculture.

Why would the 'US military contingent' need to understand the basics of agriculture?

[Ken White]

Why would the 'US military contingent' need to understand the basics of agriculture?

I've been wondering the same thing while following this thread...

[ganulv]

Why would the 'US military contingent' need to understand the basics of agriculture?

If the strategists have decided upon undertaking a population-centric counterinsurgency and 80% of the population is engaged in agriculture, how could these same strategists even pretend to formulate strategy if they know nothing about agriculture?

But is the implicit question whether or not I think military professionals need to know something about agriculture? I don't see how it would help the young man scanning the Fulda horizon with his field glasses c. 1985; I don't see how it would not help the military governor of an agriculturally rich state then, now, or ever.

And my semi-informed opinion is that with COIN 2.0 the United States Military asks far too much of itself.