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Old 02-22-2012   #1
slapout9
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Thumbs up The Greatest Marine In History

Is John Glenn! Yesterday was the 50th anniversary of his Mercury space flight and he is only 90 years young. Link below to some video of that great day.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...st=0&FORM=LKVR


Glenn has no love for the present USA leadership and their ant-American view of the Space program and he expressed it very clearly at the celebrations at NASA. I am quoting from the Sunday edition of my local newspaper.

"I REALLY MISS MY CITIZENSHIP THAT WAS ONCE IN A CAN DO NATION!!!!!!!"

Gods Speed John Glenn for what you did and for having the courage to speak the truth to those left over Commie bastards running the country that destroyed the USA Space program!

Last edited by slapout9; 02-22-2012 at 08:44 PM. Reason: fix stuff
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Old 02-22-2012   #2
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The ghost of Chesty objects.

As for the leftover Commie anti-American bastards, you mean the guys who cut the shuttle in 2004?

http://www.cleveland.com/friendship-...ohn_glenn.html

Quote:
Glenn said the decline of America's role in manned space exploration did not occur on "Charlie's watch," saying the current NASA administrator inherited the situation. While he never uttered the names of President Barack Obama or his predecessor, George W. Bush, Glenn left no doubt about whom he blamed.

He chided "the previous administration" for concocting the idea of going to the moon and Mars, while announcing the cancellation of the shuttle program in 2004.

The last shuttle flights occurred last year after the Obama administration approved two additional flights, according to NASA.

Glenn also obliquely praised the current administration for doubling the money being expended on American industry's role in designing and building spacecraft that will carry NASA's next generations of astronauts back into space.
http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13404

Quote:
To meet this goal, we will return the Space Shuttle to flight as soon as possible, consistent with safety concerns and the recommendations of the Columbia Accident Investigation Board. The Shuttle's chief purpose over the next several years will be to help finish assembly of the International Space Station. In 2010, the Space Shuttle -- after nearly 30 years of duty -- will be retired from service.
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Old 02-22-2012   #3
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Default I felt sure this was going to be a thread about Smedley Butler

but Colonel Glenn makes sense, too.
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Old 02-23-2012   #4
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Default Glenn. Glenn?

Isn't he the guy who fell in the bathtub?

(Hat tip to Strom Thurmond for that quote...)

Seriously Glenn's a good pick. So's Puller. Or Dan Daly or Herman Hanneken. Handsome Jack Myers comes to mind as does Lou Diamond. However, on all round basis, I'd prob'ly go with LeJeune.

Or Archibald Henderson who set the course...
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Old 02-23-2012   #5
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Originally Posted by tequila View Post
The ghost of Chesty objects.

As for the leftover Commie anti-American bastards, you mean the guys who cut the shuttle in 2004?

http://www.cleveland.com/friendship-...ohn_glenn.html



http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13404
Yes, him and a few others. Your post is a good explanation of all the terrible things that have been done to NASA. The Celebration was nearly a week long and the description of the Government's shenanigans got pretty graphic at times, a lot were scrubbed before they appeared in publications. Most people just don't know the real history of the Space program anymore thanks to the Politically Correct Media. Only 3 presidents have truly understood the importance of Space.... Eisenhower,Kennedy,Reagan.....the return to space full time and in a big way is critical to the survival of our nation.....it will be the New Frontier for Small Wars!!!!!!
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Old 02-23-2012   #6
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Originally Posted by Ken White View Post
Isn't he the guy who fell in the bathtub?

(Hat tip to Strom Thurmond for that quote...)

Seriously Glenn's a good pick. So's Puller. Or Dan Daly or Herman Hanneken. Handsome Jack Myers comes to mind as does Lou Diamond. However, on all round basis, I'd prob'ly go with LeJeune.

Or Archibald Henderson who set the course...
I am not sure if that was him or not (bath tub incident) but as you point out it was a really big deal back then.......sure it wasn't Shepard?.....concern over him being able to progress from Mercury ro Gemini? Can't remember.


Nah....Glenn is the man none of them other guys you tlak about ever flew Space ships!!!!
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Old 02-23-2012   #7
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but Colonel Glenn makes sense, too.
ganulv,not to digress to much but did you hear the NPR interview about J. Edgar Hoover and how he actually broke up a Right Wing Plot to overthrow America. Happened at about the same time as Butler was saying he was approached to do the job. Not sure if there is a connection there or not.
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Old 02-23-2012   #8
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Talking The Ace of Space...

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I am not sure if that was him or not (bath tub incident) but as you point out it was a really big deal back then.......sure it wasn't Shepard?.....concern over him being able to progress from Mercury ro Gemini? Can't remember.
It was later: "NASA psychologists determined during Glenn's training that he was the astronaut best suited for public life. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy suggested to Glenn and his wife in December 1962 that he should run against incumbent United States Senator Stephen M. Young of Ohio in the 1964 Democratic primary election. In 1964 Glenn announced that he was resigning from the space program to run against Young, but withdrew when he hit his head on a bathtub. Glenn sustained a concussion and injured his inner ear, and recovery left him unable to campaign. Glenn remained close to the Kennedy family and was with Robert Kennedy when he was assassinated in 1968. (LINK)
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Nah....Glenn is the man none of them other guys you tlak about ever flew Space ships!!!!
Heh, I'll give you that -- and being a nice guy will make no jokes about Space Cadets...
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Old 02-24-2012   #9
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Default I nominate Presley O'Bannon

His bravery is reflected in a line in the Marine Hymn and the reason for the Marines' choice of officer sword.

The Wikipedia bio link has more details and some other links for info follow:

http://www.centerhouse.org/v-bannon.html
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...e=gr&GRid=2339
http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/obannonp.html
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Old 02-24-2012   #10
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Default My vote is:

Major General Littleton "Tony" Waller Tazewell Waller (September 26, 1856 – July 13, 1926). Hero of Samar, Marine messes would stand whenever a "Samar battalion" officer was present and toast, "Stand, gentlemen, he served on Samar." I wish one of these little smily faces was a salute.
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Old 02-24-2012   #11
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Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
Major General Littleton "Tony" Waller Tazewell Waller (September 26, 1856 – July 13, 1926). Hero of Samar, Marine messes would stand whenever a "Samar battalion" officer was present and toast, "Stand, gentlemen, he served on Samar." I wish one of these little smily faces was a salute.
The actual events on Samar seem far less than heroic in retrospect, and (then) Major Waller's most notable achievement seems to have been getting a column so thoroughly lost in the jungle that a fair number of them died of disease and hunger, then summarily executing their local porters... but I suppose the construction of a legend needn't be hampered by actual events.

I heard a rumor somewhere that when John Glenn got into space he saw the words "Ken White Was Here" hanging inexplicably in the void, and that NASA had to cover up that detail....
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Old 02-25-2012   #12
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Default To the Shores of Derna ...

where the Eaton-O'Bannon expedition was stopped in its tracks by the "success" of the Jefferson-Lear diplomatic mission. Lear then engaged in Adventures in Basha Sitting for the next decade - at an aggregate cost north of $500K to the USG in blackmail paid to the said Basha. The cost of the Eaton-O'Bannon expedition was less than 1-10th of that. Was the said Basha a "friend, partner and ally" ? Yeh, right !

Perhaps, I'm over-influenced by Zacks, The Pirate Coast: Thomas Jefferson, the First Marines, and the Secret Mission of 1805 (2006); and by current events involving our "friends, partners and allies" whose rental charges have been considerable higher than our 1805 Basha. I don't think so.

Zachs gave an interview to CorpsStories, which gets down to my nomination:

Quote:
...The flawed hero is clearly Jefferson's secret agent, William Eaton but the largely unsung heroes are the EIGHT Marines who accompanied him on that near-miraculous mission. Let's record their names: Lt. Presley N. O'Bannon, Sgt. Arthur Campbell, Privates: Bernard O'Brian, David Thomas (Wounded), James Owens, John Wilton (Killed in Action), Edward Steward (Died of Wounds). One name is still lost.
While the military conditions were difficult, the political conditions became impossible. That is a situation in Corps history that has not been limited to Derna. Those 8 Marines are simply shorthand for ALL Marines who have served honorably in the Corps. That is my answer to Slap's question.

----------------------
On a lighter note, Zacks looked briefly at Presley O'Bannon's post-Marine life (pp.378-379 book; snip from interview):

Quote:
I wish I had more details about the individual eight Marines. O'Bannon is the only one we know much about. He was fun-loving, fiddle-playing, courageous sort of officer but he got so disgusted with lack of promotion in the Marines that after the war, he joined the Army, before going on to distill whiskey, make a fortune in real estate and eventually get elected to office in Kentucky.
I've meant to look at the O'Bannons more closely (the Wild Geese article cited by wm is a good start) especially the "Old Pepper" distillery. This post provided the push needed. The family has an extensive Root'sWeb genealogy (all links below are to individual pages with more history).

Presley Neville O'Bannon was 1 of 13 surviving children of William O'Bannon and Nancy Anne Neville.

William appointed sons Thomas (a Rev War vet and bootlegger), Joseph (moved West to Missouri) and Presley N. O'Bannon as executors with a special charge to Presley Neville O'Bannon to "Pay every possible attention to his mother and see her righted in every instance."

The "Old Pepper" connection to Presley was via his eldest brother John (a USG surveyor of the Northwest Territory; Capt., Maj., Col.) and their brother in law Elijah Pepper:

Quote:
Elijah and Sarah moved to the area near Versailles, Woodford County, KY about 1790. Elijah Pepper and his brother in law, John O'Bannon built a distillery in Versailles which was at a spring gushing behind the court house ... "a spring emanating from a cave behind behind the Versailles courthouse'. This partnership continued for several years or until Elijah Pepper bought a large tract of land seven miles below the spring on Glenn's Creek, when the partnership was dissolved.

Glenn Creek, with clear water flowing from a limestone plat, meanders behind the complex. Its presence is the main reason this site was picked by the original distillery owner, Elijah Pepper, in 1812. Limestone water proved not only the best for distilling, but is credited for the area's horses being stronger and faster than the competition. There, Elijah erected 'log house possibly stockaded on an elevated slope above the creek facing Versailles and the Millville Road'.

John O'Bannon continued the distillation of whiskey at Versailles having bought that distillery and Elijah established his own distillery on Glenn's Creek, where he distilled his "Old Pepper". Elijah was a well-known as a superior local farmer-distiller. When the Whiskey Rebellion arose in 1794, Elijah was one of the few distillers with pockets deep enough to pay the demanded excise taxes. Many other local farmer-distillers were forced to give up distilling due to the high taxes and sold their grains to Elijah, which he, in turn, distilled. Elijah ran a successful distillation operation until he died, leaving the distillery to his son and successor, Oscar.

Elijah erected on his farm at Glenn's Creek a comfortable log house on an elevated slope above the creek that faces the Versailles and Millville road, and in the creek below he erected the distillery plant where he continued to manufacture the "Old Pepper". The residence was still standing but had been weatherboarded. Its design indicates that it was built at a very early date to guard against attacks from roving bands of Indians that infested the country for some years after they were driven westward from Virginia. The home was built on a rise overlooking Grasy Springs Branch of Glenn's Creek. The distillery was small and only a few evidences remain of its existence and they are within a short distance of the Labrot and Graham distillary (founded in 1878), that succeeded the Pepper plant some years after the Civil War. On his farm Pepper raised the grain that entered into the manufacture of his liquid product. After his death, Elijah's son Oscar continued the business until about 1865.
Ach, 'Tis said: Give a Mick a comfortable chair, overlooking an expanse of lush grass; provide a lifetime supply of good booze; and you will have a long-lived, peaceful Mick. Presley O'Bannon lived until 1850.

Regards

Mike

Last edited by jmm99; 02-25-2012 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 02-25-2012   #13
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Originally Posted by Dayuhan View Post
The actual events on Samar seem far less than heroic in retrospect, and (then) Major Waller's most notable achievement seems to have been getting a column so thoroughly lost in the jungle that a fair number of them died of disease and hunger, then summarily executing their local porters... but I suppose the construction of a legend needn't be hampered by actual events.

I heard a rumor somewhere that when John Glenn got into space he saw the words "Ken White Was Here" hanging inexplicably in the void, and that NASA had to cover up that detail....
lol...yep, lots and lots of controversy about the "Hero or Butcher of Samar". Certainly don't know everything about Waller but after sorting out the "yellow press" issue and the hike from hell the guy is still my hero. When he finally broke out of the jungle, he when right back in leading a rescue party with a 105 fever to save his Marines. However, now that I know Presley founded a family tradition of good whiskey...I may have to reconsider.
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Old 02-26-2012   #14
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Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
lol...yep, lots and lots of controversy about the "Hero or Butcher of Samar". Certainly don't know everything about Waller but after sorting out the "yellow press" issue and the hike from hell the guy is still my hero. When he finally broke out of the jungle, he when right back in leading a rescue party with a 105 fever to save his Marines. However, now that I know Presley founded a family tradition of good whiskey...I may have to reconsider.
"Butcher of Samar" was of course exaggerated; there' little in the record to suggest that Waller actually tried to carry out the infamous orders he got from "Howlin' Jake". Executing the 11 porters might seem to justify the title but by the standards of the day that was pretty normal. I'll give him points for going back with a rescue party (though experience of tropical fevers leads me to suspect that the 105 is an exaggeration), but taking 9 days to find the group left behind... well, that's how it was in those days. Reading period sources really does give the impression that the American forces were far from prepared for jungle operations!
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Old 02-27-2012   #15
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Default Who went Where and When ?

From the March Across Samar (Wiki article) [Weller and his officers (on to Basey) in bold; Porter and Williams (back to Lanang) in italics]:

Quote:
The detachment started from Lanang on the morning of December 28, 1901, and was composed of the following personnel: Major Littleton W. T. Waller, Captain David D. Porter, Captain Hirim I. Bearss, First Lieutenant A. S. Williams, Second Lieutenant A. C. DeW. Lyles, U. S. Army (Aid sent by General Smith), Second Lieutenant Frank Halford, 50 enlisted U. S. Marines, 2 native scouts and 33 native carriers.
...
After a conference with his officers, Major Waller decided to take Lieutenant Halford and thirteen of the men who were in the best condition and push forward as rapidly as possible and send back a relief party for the main column, which was placed under the command of Captain Porter with instructions to go slowly and follow Major Waller's trail. The advance column was afterwards joined by Captain Bearss and a corporal ...
...
Near this point the party came upon the camp which Captain Dunlap had established to await their arrival. Major Waller's party went aboard Captain Dunlap's cutter and started for Basey, where they arrived on January 6, 1902...
... Immediately after the arrival of the detachment at Basey, a relief party was sent back to locate Captain Porter's party. The following day Major Waller joined this relief party, and remained out nine days searching for signs of Captain Porter without success. ... Upon returning to Basey, Major Waller was taken sick with fever. ...
...
Meanwhile Captain Porter had decided to retrace the trail to Lanang and ask for a relief party to be sent out for his men, the most of whom were unable to march. He chose seven marines who were in the best condition and with six natives, set out January 3 for Lanang. He left Lieutenant Williams in charge of the remainder of the detachment with orders to follow as the condition of the men would permit. ...
...
On January 11, Captain Porter reached Lanang and reported the situation to Captain Pickering, the Army Commander at that place. A relief expedition was organized to go for the remainder of the marines but it was unable to start for several days because of the swollen Lanang River. ...
....
Lieutenant Williams and his men slowly followed Captain Porter's trail, leaving men behind one by one to die beside the trail when it was no longer possible for them to continue. One man went insane; the native carriers became mutinous and some of them attacked and wounded Lieutenant Williams with bolos. Williams later testified that their mutinous behavior left the Marines in daily fear of their lives; the porters were hiding food and supplies from the Marines and keeping themselves nourished from the jungle while the Marines starved. The 11 porters were placed under arrest when Williams' command reached Lanang. ... After having left ten marines to die along the trail, Lieutenant Williams was finally met by the relief party on the morning of January 18 and taken back to Lanang.
So, no great mystery about why the relief party from Basey could not find Porter and Williams - they were going back to Lanang.

What happened to 2nd Lt. Lyles, U. S. Army (not mentioned in Wiki past the 1st paragraph) ? He was eaten by hungry Marines, of course.

The Charge and Specification vs Waller read (emphasis added):

Quote:
CHARGE: Murder, in violation of the 58th Article of War. SPECIFICATION: In that Major Littleton W.T. Waller, United States Marine Corps, being then and there detached for service with the United States Army by authority of the President of the United States, did, in time of war, willfully and feloniously and with malice aforethought, murder and kill eleven men, names unknown, natives of the Philippine Islands, by ordering and causing his subordinate officer under his command, John Horace Arthur Day, 1st Lieutenant, U.S. Marine Corps, and a firing detail of enlisted men under his said command, to take out said eleven men and shoot them to death, which said order was then and there carried into execution and said eleven natives, and each of them, were shot with rifles, from the effects of which they then and there died. This at Basey, Island of Samar, Philippine Islands, on or about the 20th day of January, 1902.
I don't know if the time line is credible. Williams reaches Lanang on 18 Jan, with the 11 porters being arrested there. The porters are in Basey on 20 Jan, to be executed there. Dayuhan: how long would it take to get from Lanang to Basey - by quickest means of 1902 travel ?

BTW: The Porter lineage is interesting:

Quote:
David Dixon Porter (1877-1944) (USMC; MOH; Maj.Gen.; Capt. at Samar)

his father: Carlile Patterson Porter (1846–1914) (USMC; Lt.Col.)

his father: David Dixon Porter (1813-1891) (USN; Admiral)

his father: David Porter (1780-1843) (USN; Commodore)

his father: David Porter (1754 - 1808) (Cont. Navy, Rev War; Capt.)
Regards

Mike

PS: In truth, Dewitt Lyles testified at Waller's court-martial (called by Waller) - ATROCITY ON TRIAL: THE COURT-MARTIAL OF LITTLETON WALLER (by Christopher Thomas Dean, 2009; pp. 69-70 pdf), which found Waller Not Guilty (11-2). A separate jury found Lt. Day (who commanded the firing squad) also Not Guilty.

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Old 02-27-2012   #16
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Dayuhan: how long would it take to get from Lanang to Basey - by quickest means of 1902 travel ?
Interesting how a thread on a space expedition gets to walking across Samar... anything is possible I guess.

Linear distance (the place once called Lanang, mouth of the Lanang river, is now called Llorente) is a bit under 35 miles. Even today you'd have to walk. Obviously you wouldn't walk in a straight line: central Samar has large areas of limestone karst country that just need to be avoided, cliffs, caves, sinkholes, very dense vegetation.

Small fit group with a good local guide, 2-3 days. 80 loaded people with unreliable guides or guides they don't trust could blunder around out there forever, going in circles.

When I first read about this expedition, long ago, it struck me as sheer lunacy, driven mainly by that late 19th century explorer drive, the whole "boldly go where no (white) man has gone before" thing. No logic to it at all. The telegraph route was superfluous; they were already laying cable from Basey to Balangiga and from Balangiga there's a perfectly easy coastal/plain route to Llorente.

December is the start to the east coast rainy season, weather would have been miserable and working up rivers not feasible. Worst possible time to do it. A group that size is an outright liability in the jungle, slows everything down and you can't possibly feed them. My understanding from accounts is that even a few days in the expedition was obviously in trouble, moving way too slowly, running out of food, and poorly equipped for conditions. The logical (though possibly not heroic) choice would have been to recognize it as a bad job, go back and plan again. I don't half blame the porters for the mutiny; they'd probably been press-ganged to start with and they must have felt they were at the mercy of a bunch of lunatics bent on suicide.

It's really not a unique story, though on a greater scale than mot like it. Most US casualties during that war were from disease, not combat; inexperience in the tropics was far more fatal than the insurrectos. You had whole units out in tropical rainy seasons in wool socks and boots, doing daily marches. A week of that and your feet are rotting and infected, and antibiotics weren't in the picture...
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Old 02-28-2012   #17
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Default Marching 12 to move three

There are many accounts of the Waller Samar Campaign. My favorite is:
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/waller-samar-part-i
http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/waller-samar-part-ii
I always thought that Robert B. Asprey was a good historian/writer. Waller definitely bit off more then he could chew...but orders are orders. Rations back in those days were canned bacon, biscuits and crewing tabaco. There was an expectation of living off the land with the help of the native porters. What is interesting is that after the march and when Waller ordered the executions, the Marines were down to 45 effectives. In addition, most of the 300+ Marines were bare foot...Waller had walked his Marines out of their boots from the insurgence patrols. There is also rumors of another pending bolo swarm attack on their base that was playing on Marine's mind.
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Old 02-28-2012   #18
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Default Timeline & Communications

The prosecution botched the timeline, which led to inconsistencies as to who did what and when. If the time don't fit, you must acquit !

From Dean's monograph on the court-martial, the 11 arrested porters (guarded by Gy.Sgt. Quick and other Marines) were shipped by USN gunboat from Lanang to Basay, arriving sometime on 20 Jan.

Asprey's MG article (pt II) adds some important detail to the timeline and communications that Waller had:

Quote:
At this critical juncture-about noon of 18 January -the Army relief party came onto the survivors. Williams and his men were crawling towards them. They reached Lanang that night and by 20 January all hands were in the Army hospital at Tacloban, Leyte.

Capt Porter at once telephoned the terrible story to Maj Waller at Basey. Porter had arrested 11 of the natives and was sending them to Basey under GySgt Quick. Porter believed they should be shot; so did Williams; so did the troops.

Waller knew exactly what Porter was talking about. On 5 January he had been personally threatened by a carrier named Victor and throughout the march his scouts, Slim and Smoke, had failed to report to him when ordered. Victor, who had not gotten through to Porter because the area was full of insurrectos, was discovered to have lied and to have told another guide, "As the Americans will not return to the other party, it will be a good time for us to kill them and flee to the mountains."

After Porter's telephone call and GySgt Quick's personal report, Waller called in the 11 prisoners, who only trembled silently during interrogation. Convinced of their treachery, Waller was also mindful of his overall mission. He was still out of action; the populations of Basey and Balangiga were openly hostile; he had 95 prisoners, and only 45 effective Marines for duty.

His orders to execute the 11 people were carried out that afternoon. The next day he telegraphed BGen Smith on Leyte that he had "expended" 11 natives.
Where did Asprey find this information ?

Some reports by Army participants are said (by Google) to be in the Report of the War Department for 1902; and by Marine participants in the Report of the Secretary of the Navy for 1902.

On the other hand, I could spend some time on a matter closer to the theme of Slap's OP - Sigourney Weaver, the Space Marines and Alien.

Regards

Mike
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Old 02-29-2012   #19
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throughout the march his scouts, Slim and Smoke, had failed to report to him when ordered.
Maybe he should have tried learning their actual names.

The depiction of native scouts and porters as inept, treacherous, mendacious, and superstitious is a fixture in the literature of colonial-era expeditions. If the scouts and porters had the opportunity to recount their side of the story, one wonders what they might have to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
Waller definitely bit off more then he could chew...but orders are orders.
This quote:

Quote:
"remembering the General's [Smith] several talks on the subject and his evident, desire to know the trail and run wires across, coupled with my own desire for some further knowledge of the people and the nature of this heretofore impenetrable country, I decided to make the trail with 50 men and the necessary carriers."
suggests that while the subject had been discussed, the expedition was not specifically ordered and was undertaken at Waller's own initiative, against the advice of other officers on the scene.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarbear1605 View Post
There was an expectation of living off the land with the help of the native porters.
If Waller was indeed "experienced in bush warfare" he would surely have known that it would be impossible to support a column that size by "living off the land". Of course "living off the land" in the parlance of the day meant finding some "savages" and stealing their food, but even that assumption would rely on finding cultivated areas and food to steal.

Of course actions taken at the turn of the century have to be assessed against the conventions of the day, and the writings of historians in the early '60s have to be assessed against the conventions of that day. Still, the arrogance, condescension and outright racism implicit in both the actions and the later "history" (using the term very lightly indeed) are startling, if only in the extent to which they highlight how far we've come (one hopes) since then.
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