Light infantry foot mobility standards?

[carl]

Originally Posted by Fuchs

In the end, the leader can claim that his mission was impossible because the men were not capable enough.

Very astute comment that gets at the human nature core of the thing. In one of the threads on the Council, the one about soldier's load and body armor and such, if you go back to the early postings, there are numerous comments reflecting exactly that attitude. Many comments to the effect that people need to work out more, try harder etc., ie-blaming the men.

Too bad we don't still have cavalry and horse mounted infantry. If a cavalry unit exhausted its horses on an approach march to the extent they couldn't do anything but pant upon arrival, no officer could get away with saying it was the horse's fault. They would just be fired for not knowing the condition of and abusing the animals. If they overloaded the animals the load would be lightened, no excuses. They get away with it with men now though. If there were still animal units around at least somebody could point to the mule train and say "You don't expect it from them!"

[JMA]

Originally Posted by carl

Very astute comment that gets at the human nature core of the thing. In one of the threads on the Council, the one about soldier's load and body armor and such, if you go back to the early postings, there are numerous comments reflecting exactly that attitude. Many comments to the effect that people need to work out more, try harder etc., ie-blaming the men.

Carl, a new arrival commander takes over a going concern which everyone will know is either up to standard or is not. What follows is the first months - called the 'honeymoon period' - where the new guy has time to settle in and establish himself before he is held personally responsible for the battle readiness of the unit/sub-unit.

Once the 'honeymoon period is over he has no place to hide... and no one else to blame.

This one... still true:

In the British Army, there are no good battalions and no bad battalions, no good regiments and no bad regiments. There are only good and bad officers. - FIELD-MARSHAL SIR WILLIAM SLIM echoing NAPOLEON

This is why initial officer selection is so important.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by JMA

So what (may I ask) is your fitness standard in this regard? Carrying what weight? What distance within what time, uphill or flat or whatever?

The pace of movement varies depending upon the terrain. In High Altitude, we carry about 20/25 kgs.

There is the usual Battle Physical Efficiency Tests with full combat load and weapon that includes a 5 km run in 28 mins to qualify as Satisfactory), 10 mile run in 1 hour 40 mins to be in Satisfactory, 9 feet ditch, money rope and so on. Then the Physical Proficiency Test. A swimming Test. The standards are marginally different for below 45yrs of age and above 45 years of age. Then there is the Obstacle Course.

We had a 40kms march (which is practically a run) in 5 hours with full battle loads (I don't have the exact weights, but it consists of the Field Service Marching Order with the big pack, haversack, pouch ammunition, water bottle, helmet and the weapon). I don't know if they still have this.

The standards have changed I am told.

[JMA]

Originally Posted by Ray

The pace of movement varies depending upon the terrain. In High Altitude, we carry about 20/25 kgs.

There is the usual Battle Physical Efficiency Tests with full combat load and weapon that includes a 5 km run in 28 mins to qualify as Satisfactory), 10 mile run in 1 hour 40 mins to be in Satisfactory, 9 feet ditch, money rope and so on. Then the Physical Proficiency Test. A swimming Test. The standards are marginally different for below 45yrs of age and above 45 years of age. Then there is the Obstacle Course.

We had a 40kms march (which is practically a run) in 5 hours with full battle loads (I don't have the exact weights, but it consists of the Field Service Marching Order with the big pack, haversack, pouch ammunition, water bottle, helmet and the weapon). I don't know if they still have this.

The standards have changed I am told.

Thank you. Always interesting to see how other armies/nations approach this issue. Seems like there is some lingering Brit influence there?

[Ray]

The British influence lingers, but then the modern way of analysing everything scientifically and psychologically is taking its toll. Common sense soldiering and leadership is being sacrificed at the altar of 'scientific leadership' and it is failing (as I see it!)

[JMA]

Originally Posted by Ray

The British influence lingers, but then the modern way of analysing everything scientifically and psychologically is taking its toll. Common sense soldiering and leadership is being sacrificed at the altar of 'scientific leadership' and it is failing (as I see it!)

We seem to share a similar concern.

To take it further I don't see a solution as despite a holding action in some quarters the US belief that with a Henry Ford style production line they will be able to meet every challenge if they have enough time to prepare. So in the meantime they just continue to allow potential enemies to catch up and soon... to overtake them. The military is as much to blame as the politicians.

You need to help me understand the Indian deterrent because as it stands (in my understanding) beyond the numbers game I see not much hope from that quarter.

[Ray]

Indian deterrent from the concept point of view for our adversaries are well in place. The nuclear threshold has been catered for against Pakistan with what is popularly termed as the Cold Start.

In the numbers game, as it is well know, two Divisions are being added to the Eastern front.

Indian foreign policy is very passive and the defence forces are geared to translate what is dictated them. We are capable of defending our territorial integrity, but maybe we are not quite capable of offensive actions.

The problem is that Indian indigenous defence industry is as good as not be there. The Defence Public Service Undertaking are merely assembling foreign weapon systems where we have the option of Licence Production/ Transfer of Technology. The Defence Research and Development Organisation excepting in the Nuclear and Rocket Science have no major contribution.

The fact that India depends heavily on foreign nations for its weaponry is the Achilles Heel because if a sanction is imposed, as it has been done earlier, then the war machine is up for the grabs.

[JMA]

Originally Posted by Ray

Indian deterrent from the concept point of view for our adversaries are well in place. The nuclear threshold has been catered for against Pakistan with what is popularly termed as the Cold Start.

In the numbers game, as it is well know, two Divisions are being added to the Eastern front.

Indian foreign policy is very passive and the defence forces are geared to translate what is dictated them. We are capable of defending our territorial integrity, but maybe we are not quite capable of offensive actions.

The problem is that Indian indigenous defence industry is as good as not be there. The Defence Public Service Undertaking are merely assembling foreign weapon systems where we have the option of Licence Production/ Transfer of Technology. The Defence Research and Development Organisation excepting in the Nuclear and Rocket Science have no major contribution.

The fact that India depends heavily on foreign nations for its weaponry is the Achilles Heel because if a sanction is imposed, as it has been done earlier, then the war machine is up for the grabs.

Thanks for the considered reply... and sorry for taking this thread off topic.

[ganulv]

Originally Posted by Ray

The problem is that Indian indigenous defence industry is as good as not be there. The Defence Public Service Undertaking are merely assembling foreign weapon systems where we have the option of Licence Production/ Transfer of Technology. The Defence Research and Development Organisation excepting in the Nuclear and Rocket Science have no major contribution.

The fact that India depends heavily on foreign nations for its weaponry is the Achilles Heel because if a sanction is imposed, as it has been done earlier, then the war machine is up for the grabs.

Just curious because I am a bit of a kit anorak, but are the Bergens, climbing gear, &tc. used by the IA's mountain units domestically produced?

[Ray]

Most of it are indigenous.