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#1 | ||
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Counterinsurgency Operations Within the Wire—The 306th Military Police Battalion Experience at Abu Ghraib Quote:
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Last edited by Jedburgh; 04-17-2007 at 01:28 PM. |
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#2 | |
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USIP, 24 Jul 08: Iraq: Positive Change in the Detention System
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#3 |
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Council Member
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US military: Iraq inmates imposed Islamic justice
By KIM GAMEL – 1 day ago BAGHDAD (AP) — For years, extremist Iraqi detainees in U.S. custody held self-styled Islamic courts and tortured or killed inmates who refused to join them, military officials said, disclosing new details about the use of American prisons to recruit for the insurgency. The problem became the main catalyst for a decision to separate moderate detainees from the extremists, part of a broader reform package aimed at correcting widespread U.S. prison abuses that sparked international criticism. "We were having people who weren't insurgents who were being forced to be insurgents because of the power of these courts, the power of al-Qaida and other extremist groups," said Lt. Col. Kenneth Plowman, a spokesman for Task Force 134, which operates coalition detention facilities in Iraq. He told The Associated Press Friday that the jailhouse Sharia courts were formed, despite the presence of U.S guards, to enforce an extreme interpretation of Islamic law. They were then used to convict moderate inmates, who were then tortured or killed, he said. In comments published in the Sierra Vista Herald in Arizona, Brig. Gen. Rodney L. Johnson, commander of the U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command, put the number of detainees tried by the courts in the double-digits. Neither he nor Plowman would give specific numbers. The courts were eradicated and none has been detected in six months although some gang-related issues persist, Plowman said. "We have a detainee population of about 21,000. You're gonna have extremists who will find a way to communicate and to form these kind of organizations," he added. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...ttSmgD925PU1O0 |
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#4 | |
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JFQ, 1st Qtr 09: Inside the Detention Camps: A New Campaign in Iraq
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#5 |
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Council Member
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It is my understanding that today the United States has prisoners in Iraq and elsewhere around the world, arrested for crimes committed during the Global War on Terror and for a variety of other criminal actions. (Please don't read this as sympathy, just a statement of facts written at 0100.)
Our US due process requirements would demand certain criteria be met in order to hold a trial and adjudicate the defendant appropriately, within a reasonable period. (Again, not an ACLU lawyer) It is further my understanding that these suspects/defendants/often zealot murderers are going beyond what the American citizen considers reasonable. My question to this group is - what is the cause of this and what steps are we as a force taking to expedite these hearings? As a former attorney, I am surprised to hear that we are holding these prisoners for so long without complete processing, and I recognize that the postings on detention operations above are key for a successful counterinsurgency. (I would suggest that an expedited detention rapidly loses efficacy, if you hold prisoners without tangible evidence and without a trial.) Recognizing that some of this information may be sensitive, please PM me if you are uncomfortable answering in the public forum.
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"New knowledge is the most valuable commodity on earth. The more truth we have to work with, the richer we become." - Kurt Vonnegut |
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#6 |
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I have no uncommon or privileged information on this topic. It is just my hunch that we are delaying trials as a safeguard against the possibility that we are faced with the option of either an open trial or releasing the prisoners. Should that situation result, we will logically start with the people held the longest and work our way back. It is in our interest, in such a situation, for us to have the longest queue possible. That way, we have a time buffer between capture and trial for intelligence to become less timely and irrelevant to current operations.
Just my hunch. |
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#7 | |
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HRW, 14 Dec 08: The Quality of Justice: Failings of Iraq’s Central Criminal Court
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#8 |
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Thanks for the insights Jedburgh. The HRW stuff is helpful. I suspected much of what schmelap posted is on point from a rationale perspective. While most Americans sleep ignorant (intentionally or not) there is a nagging voice in my head that asks why can't we move this along, whether using Iraqi standards of justice our our own.
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"New knowledge is the most valuable commodity on earth. The more truth we have to work with, the richer we become." - Kurt Vonnegut |
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#9 |
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This is really a self-inflicted head wound, as a result of not understanding and staying in our lane from the start.
First, if you keep your missions straight by not confusing the COIN being conducted by the HN government with the mission that you are conducting to support their operation. I argue that it is FID, but recognize that reasonable minds (and many joint and service pubs and a whole array of professional articles, blogs and books) can differ. When we make it OUR operation, we inherit all of the baggage that comes with that role. To clean this mess up I would simply: 1. Recognize, announce, and embrace our supporting role, subordinate to the Host Nations we are operating in. 2. Place all detainees under their control, making it FULLY THEIR DECISION as to how they process these guys. Many would be released immediately, many would be shipped to their nation or origin, etc. We can advise, but we should not impose ourself on this process. 3. Apply that same "supported/supporting" relationship to the entire operation. In the spirit of promoting Democracy, you have to take the bad with the good. Sometimes Hamas gets elected. Deal with it, that is what makes democracy work. Sometimes the elected officials won't share the same priorities and national interests that the U.S. has in that region. Again, suck it up, that is how Democracy works. To do otherwise, to simply ignore or override HN wishes where it runs counter to our view is not Democracy, it is hypocracy. And that leads to wicked problems... like what to do with all these detainees. Isn't our problem more one of how do we control the resolution of these detainees? |
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#10 |
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Bob's World, would say there should be an exception w/ individuals that are wanted in the U.S. for pre-existing crimes (some members of AQ)? Do we have the right to extridite them if they are captured by U.S. forces? Other then that, I agree 100%. The country that has the largest percentage of it's population incarcerated should probably not be telling other countries how to run there prisons, or running them for them.
Reed |
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#11 | |
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As for extradition, I suspect that this is a reasonable request, depending on the perspective of the HN govt., but I would prefer to see the trials occur on HN soil where the prisoners are, under the laws of the HN. Naturally, this empowers the HN govt, and places the power back in the hands of the people where the crime was committed. I like the idea of us advising/coaching, but I believe that the issue is upstream - Can we prove what the defendant is accused of, even under the more lenient legal requirements of HN law The question still remains - what system or processes are in place to facilitate this occurring?
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"New knowledge is the most valuable commodity on earth. The more truth we have to work with, the richer we become." - Kurt Vonnegut |
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#12 |
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If we allow the HN to perform the HN role, we (The US) do not have to concern ourselves over proving anything. Not in our lane. As to oversight, I believe this is one function the UN could perform reasonably well to ensure that global sensitivities are not abused in the process, and it is best that this does not become an American operation.
One key to remember is that insurgents, by definition, are a part of the populace. Key to an enduring resolution to any insurgency is for the HN government involved in the insurgency to address their failures that gave rise to the insurgency in the first place, and to sort through those members of the populace that participated and adjudicate their disposition. Most should be returned to assist in being part of the larger solution. Some will indeed need to face harsh legal consequences for their actions, but again, this is not something that an outside nation, no matter how deeply they have embroiled themselves in the problem, needs to concern themselves over. As to the larger question of why 40% of the foreign fighters in Iraq are Saudi Citizens, 20% Libyan, and 20% Algerian (per open source); these guys really need to be sent home, or perhaps granted asylum as many are probably insurgents at home. I guess my point is, that if you have a confused understanding of the overall nature of the problem, then you are likely to come up with confused (ie, ineffective) ways for addressing it. Fact is, that if Saudi insurgents believe that Phase 1 to a successful insurgency at home is to go abroad to attack the US in an effort to break the support of the US to keeping that Saudi government in power; you have to ask yourself if we have the right relationship / policies in place as to the US and the Kingdom. To simply ascribe the GWOT to Bin Laden being some sort of Pied Piper with a magic ideological "flute" that makes otherwise satisfied Muslim citizens from a broad cross-section of the Middle East to mindlessly follow him is naive at best. We can wrestle with the symptoms of this problem until we deplete our wealth, strength, and credibility as a nation. History is full of examples of how others have fallen into this trap (Greece, Rome, Great Britain, etc). Or, we can assess the situation with honesty and humility and change the focus of our engagement to addressing the causes. My vote is for the later. This dilemma over what to do with detainees is rooted firmly in the former. |
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#13 | |
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The insurgent, as you point out above is not necessarily a member of the larger populace. Syrians, Libyans, et al, were found all throughout Iraq in the insurgency. While they would have been considered enemy combatants under force on force operations, we find ourselves treating them more as criminals. These criminals, in turn require disposition. Turning it completely to the HN is likely not going to be a success as I would define it (conviction of the defendant), and therefore to me cannot be a viable COA. In turn, UN oversight is likely not possible given the fact that some detained were so detained on the basis of US classified data (I suspect, no personal knowledge). Further, I am not crazy about UN oversight as it strikes our credibility. Again, I don't suspect that we will find resolution here.
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"New knowledge is the most valuable commodity on earth. The more truth we have to work with, the richer we become." - Kurt Vonnegut |
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#14 |
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There is no good answer, and to continue to try to "control" this process only mires us more deeply into it.
To be a soldier is not a crime. When a war is over, POWs are released. Ok, you say, but this is a different type of warfare, where both parties are not states, and these guys are by definition breaking the law when they take up arms to challenge the state. All very true. But consider US law on this topic: "But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." Key words are "right" and "duty." Under the law, a right is something that cannot be taken away; and a duty is something that one must do. In this case that right and that duty are to rise up in insurgency. The US is probably the only nation in the world that would dare to incorporate such an inflammable piece of populace empowering language into the fabric of its doctrine, but we did and it in large part defines what we stand for as a people and a nation. I don't make this stuff up, its right there at the heart of our Declaration of Independence. While I cannot speak for how we will deal with the problem of detainees, I for one would release them all today before I would compromise that document. My preference though, is to allow the Host Nations to resolve this based on their own laws. Similarly, I would not be so arrogant as to tell them what those laws should be or how they should interpret them to achieve a result favorable to me as a foreigner, because: "...it is the Right of the People ...to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." The defense of these ideals, and others like them, are why I put on a uniform every day, and there is no detainee in the world worth compromising them over. Last edited by Bob's World; 01-15-2009 at 02:10 PM. |
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#15 | |
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Council Member
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Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. — Sydney J. Harris |
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#16 |
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Some days I think we have grown up and become our parents. I would hate to think that that is as inevitable for nation as it is for a man.
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#17 | |
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You may be right, but we probably talk way too much these days about "the rule of law." The fact is that the rule of law, or blackletter law, has never been adequate in providing justice. I had a contracts professor who was as brilliant as he was ecentric, and his area of specialty was "Equity," or the common law. Concepts such as "good faith" and "fair dealing" are central to the concept of equity; and are a hedge against black letter law that at times leaves little room for "justice" in its pursuit cleancut right and wrong. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_(law) So, though I may be completely wrong on this, I am very comfortable in taking the positon that our "law" is the totality of many things; and just as legislation is defined by both regulations and case law, so to do items like our declaration and even the uncodified express intent of lawmakers and judges contribute to the laws of this land. "rule of law" is a good soundbite, but it leaves a lot on the cutting room floor. |
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#18 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Nations, as was pointed out long ago by Thomas Hobbes in Leviathan, are artificial persons, just as corporations are. We can and do make judgments about them just as we do about our neighbors and the folks we see on the nightly news or American Idol. Maybe we rush to judgment in doing so, but that, I suispect, is part of who and what we are as finitely rational beings who are also creatures of need.
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Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. — Sydney J. Harris |
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#19 | |
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Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit The greatest educational dogma is also its greatest fallacy: the belief that what must be learned can necessarily be taught. — Sydney J. Harris |
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#20 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2007
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Finally answered himself.
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