Mumbai Attacks and their impact

[omarali50]

btw, I would put Mumbai as exhibit number one on the list of reasons why the deep state is a bit scary. Most Americans won’t agree because only a few Americans died in that attack, but the brazenness and ruthlessness of the attack, and the chilling evil of those recorded phone calls will give pause to anyone who pays attention. Being willing to protect such people is the preserve of superpowers; for a relatively small power to do so may indicate dangerous ambition, or dangerous delusion… or both. On the other hand, if Perry and and Gingrich can say its OK to use "deniable covert means", why not Pakistan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PSauTty9LA

[carl]

Omar:

To further my rep as a cynic about our political elites, it wouldn't have mattered if a lot more Americans had been killed by the "deep state" in that incident. The "deep state" kills Americans on a regular basis in Afghanistan. The Americans it kills are not the right Americans, they being mostly flyover people. If on the other hand a number of "senator's sons" were killed, that "would stimulate the bidding at Imperial Headquarters." But those people will never be in the line of fire so nothing much will ever happen.

[davidbfpo]

The attached paper given at a Mumbai conference is more a commentary on the continuing inability of India to get a coherent CT strategy and structure in place. the author Vappala Balachandran writes a regular column on such matters; in the past he was a police officer and intelligence officer. He also co-authored a state report on the attacks, which is linked on an earlier post.

[davidbfpo]

I have moved the recent posts on the US declaration of a reward for the location / capture of LeT's leader to the LeT's thread, where they fit better:http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/...ad.php?t=13337

Please post there!

[davidbfpo]

A FP article which reviews the prospects for complex urban assaults, with many links within and worthy of adding here:http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts...rban_terrorism

To date there have been no repeats of Mumbai in the West and rightly the author reminds us that we are the lucky ones:

The terrorist attacks in Kabul, Mumbai, and Pakistan constitute gruesome evidence of the important role of sound command and control and intelligence in dealing with the urban adversary's potential for operational disruption in crowded cities.

[carl]

David:

Allow me a bit of chauvinism but I think a big part of it is that the average western street cops are just better and will react to contain the situation without any central direction.

[Ray]

I would not know about how efficiently the Police of the West can handle terrorists, but in India the Police is not geared to handle terrorists.

In India, with regional political parties holding sway in many States, the issue of federalism has also surfaced.

The States find the Central overbearance and practically taking over the States' responsiblility as an infringement to the concept of federalism.

This is stil to be resolved.

Till that time, the terrorist wil have a field day!

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Carl,

Allow me a bit of chauvinism but I think a big part of it is that the average western street cops are just better and will react to contain the situation without any central direction.

Since Ray chimmed in as the expert on India CT capabilities, I don't feel offensive agreeing with you that our police will respond in a more effective manner than India's did. However, their capacity and ability to respond effectively to a complex attack will vary considerably based on where a future attack takes place. The police in NYC appear to be very capable of responding, and I'm confident that is true in other cities as well. Not so confident that capacity and ability exists in a lot of mid size cities. This largely based on budgets, if the city can't afford the right number of officers and afford to train them to the appropriate level, then we assume more risk. On the other hand, we do have armed citizens (thank God we all haven't gone metro) that will also respond.

Europe of the other hand appears to be very vulnerable to these types of attacks and if their intelligence services fails to detect and pre-empt it I suspect such an attack could have a significant impact (much like the Norway shooter recently).

[Ray]

India's counter-terrorism strategy



\http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/apr/05spec.htm

Maybe of interest.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

Posted by Carl,



Since Ray chimmed in as the expert on India CT capabilities, I don't feel offensive agreeing with you that our police will respond in a more effective manner than India's did. However, their capacity and ability to respond effectively to a complex attack will vary considerably based on where a future attack takes place. The police in NYC appear to be very capable of responding, and I'm confident that is true in other cities as well. Not so confident that capacity and ability exists in a lot of mid size cities. This largely based on budgets, if the city can't afford the right number of officers and afford to train them to the appropriate level, then we assume more risk. On the other hand, we do have armed citizens (thank God we all haven't gone metro) that will also respond.

Europe of the other hand appears to be very vulnerable to these types of attacks and if their intelligence services fails to detect and pre-empt it I suspect such an attack could have a significant impact (much like the Norway shooter recently).

I would think that more than the US Police being effective, the manner in which the US has 'wired' up the nation to keep a tab on all citizens to include their communications and the way the US has tightened up the entry of foreigners into the US, is what is keeping the US safe.

Of course, at times it is ridiculous wherein ex Presidents and Ministers of countries or dignitaries invited by the US Govt get strip searched. Indirectly, it means that the US does not even trust Ministers of other countries!

[Ken White]

Originally Posted by Ray

...Indirectly, it means that the US does not even trust Ministers of other countries!

This is, after all, a nation that does not trust any of its own politicians...

[carl]

Bill:

In the medium to small size city and area I was familiar with officers would just respond and go to the sound of guns so to speak. There would be lots of citizens who would help them out. It would be more efficient if each officer were trained specifically for the situation but I think simple individual officer initiative coupled with citizen assistance would be good enough, not perfect, but good enough. Maybe it could viewed as something like a swarm attack in reverse.

[Bill Moore]

Posted by Ray,

I would think that more than the US Police being effective, the manner in which the US has 'wired' up the nation to keep a tab on all citizens to include their communications and the way the US has tightened up the entry of foreigners into the US, is what is keeping the US safe.

You forgot to add that we talk kids into wanting to conduct acts and then provide inert bomb making materials and put them in jail for an attempted terrorist attack. It is sort of a clairvoyant pre-emptive arrest type of approach.

On a serious note I agree it is our intelligence more than anything else that keeps us safe. I don't the spying/observation of our own people is near as extensive as you're implying.

Carl,

I like your reverse swarm concept, and I agree it would work in a few minutes to a few hours, so once the police and people are mobilized the terrorists will be defeated. Keep our country strong, support the NRA

[Ray]

Key 26/11 conspirator Abu Hamza arrested at Delhi Airport

http://www.readability.com/articles/io2ksvf0

Also see Saudi Assistance and Pak Passport

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/i.../1/202430.html

Abu Hamza was in Saudi Arabia to gather funds for big terror strike; Pakistan tried to prevent his extradition: Sources
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/ab...-his-ex-235989

[Ray]

Lashkar backer detained at US airport

Houston, June 28 (PTI): Former Pakistani minister Shaikh Rashid, known for his support for the Lashkar-e-Toiba, was detained at Houston airport on arrival for his possible links with Jamat-ud-Dawa founder Hafiz Saeed, the mastermind of the Mumbai attacks.

The JuD is considered to be a cover for the Lashkar-e-Toiba.

http://www.telegraphindia.com/112062...p#.T-2If7Ue7CA

[Ray]

In my opinion, Pakistan is as sane a country as any other.

The only problem is that it suffers from schizophrenia.

The Muslims of India created a new country because they felt Muslims would be swamped by Hindus of India. Very justifiable if you ask me, given their arguments of those time. However, that is where the rot started. The intelligentsia of what became Pakistan came from India, what are called the Mohajirs.

The Mohajir were the educated lot, the leaders in the field of education, commerce, law, governance and administration. The real sons of the soil of Pakistan (the area which became West Pakistan) were feudal satraps and military men who had jagirs and so on. Beyond the feudal lords there were mere rustics who were bonded labour and some.

This is where the jockeying started. Would the Punjabis ( the rich feudal and military) satraps be the ones who chalk the destiny or the refugees from India, the educated and commercially astute Mohajirs?

Mohajirs took over the govt (Jinnah was a Mohajir and a whole lot of others), administration, judiciary and commerce. To ensure that they were not uprooted, they engineered to drum in Islam as the raison d’être for Pakistan and brought in Urdu (the language of sophisticated Muslim of UP India) as the national language. The so called Pakistani ‘sons of the soil’ were outmanoeuvred!!!!

Kashmir came as a manna. The sons of the soil were the backbone of the Army. This allowed them to project themselves as the ‘saviour’ of Pakistan and cleverly using the Mohajirs’ ‘anti India and anti Hindu’ agenda. So, the Mohajirs were checkmated.

Ever since, this has been the lever for jockeying for power in Pakistan.

The anti India agenda is the core of Pak politics. They have used US and now they are using China.

However, Pakistan is at the cross roads.

They have alienated the US for reasons that is so obvious that it requires no elaboration. And now they are upsetting China because they are being unable to control the influx of insurgents in Xinjaing.

The unfortunate part of Pakistan, is that while the wanted to ensure no Hindu majority to impede the rise of Muslims of the sub continent, they failed miserably in this pursuit. They then added the tack to be the supreme leader of the Islamic world with the nuclear bomb and spawning terrorists calling them euphemistically as Mujahideen and Taliban and they too has backfired.

One should pity them!

[davidbfpo]

An article based on a PBS Frontline broadcast two days ago, with lots of details:http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...umbai-attacks/

It will be a long time before the accused appears in an Indian criminal court and the allegations are tested Indian style.

Interesting commentary on Saudi Arabia first:

For the last two years, Ansari lived in Saudi Arabia, where he had been “talent spotting” for another “massive attack,” an official with New Delhi’s antiterrorist police unit told Reuters, though he did not specify whether India was the target.

and second:

Saudi assistance in turning over Ansari would be unusual because Saudi Arabia and India are not natural partners, according to ex-CIA analyst Bruce Riedel. “I’m puzzled by why the Saudis would do this, but it would make sense if they were being pushed by the U.S. and other countries who want Lashkar put out of business,” he told FRONTLINE.

[Ray]

He will sing like a canary!

Another one Fasih is coming in thanks to a nudge nudge wink wink from the US.

[Ray]

Key 26/11 conspirator Abu Jundal arrested at IGI airport in Delhi

http://www.readability.com/read?url=.../267741-3.html

[blueblood]

Originally Posted by carl

David:

Allow me a bit of chauvinism but I think a big part of it is that the average western street cops are just better and will react to contain the situation without any central direction.

Yes, they definitely are but then again money talks. The budget of NYPD alone is more than the combined budget of two of the largest paramilitaries of India i.e., CRPF and BSF. Jurisdiction of NYPD is tri state area and has ~35,000 employees.

On the other hand BSF guards the nearly 7500 kms of border and CRPF's jurisdiction is entire India and have a total of 550,000 employees. And trust me these are the "well funded" agencies. Salary of a NYPD police officer (corporal) is more than 4 times than that of an Indian Assistant Supritendent (Captain equivalent).

Now you do the math.