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#381 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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Eon warns on conventional power, By Pilita Clark in London, November 13, 2012 10:28 am, FT, www.ft.com Quote:
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#382 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 586
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I do own EON stock, bought this year, and I just read of the mighty fall of it today. Over -10% is nothing too usual for a days work. I will have to give it a closer read to draw my conclusions. So far I tend to buy as I don't think that much has changed since I have done my in-depth analysis. Thanks for the link.
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... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates" General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944); Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935 |
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#383 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 79
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Quote:
The interesting question for me still is, why does EON and the other three of the "Mighty Four" (G4) do not have a larger share of renewable energy (=profit); amost 30% of the electricity net production comes from reneables, the G4 have only a share <7%. Could it be that EON is a nice example of faulty strategy, of a organisation that was used to a simple business model and then became lazy? |
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#384 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,976
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Look at how renewable energies are being subsided; a fixed prices system.
Small providers can deliver renewable energy electricity into one of the big four's nets and get a high, fixed price for it. The big providers can't do this with their own net, as they would pay themselves. In the end, renewable energy electricity in their own area would have the actual price, and they love their old nuclear powerplants with all their thoroughly hidden and externalised costs sooo much. Moreover, it doesn't make sense to go to another big provider's area and infuse renewable energy electricity there. They could take revenge and do the same in your area, and there you're effectively back at the original case of selling to yourself. What they have is for PR and for having competence cores about the stuff. |
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#385 | |||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 586
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Die Zeit has an interview with Johannes Teyssen. DIE ZEIT, 21.6.2012 Nr. 26 Quote:
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... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates" General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944); Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935 |
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#386 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 79
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Quote:
There was no real attempt by the large utilties to change from energy producer to energy manager, they have know-how in this field, IMHO a lost oppportunity. Energy production and nets are different aspects and business sectors, the main issue at the moment is that the G4 deliver electricity at a price that is for consumer and small industry higher than the production costs with PV, they clarly calculate with the laziness of the consumers. consumer price (high demand) 17-20 cent /kWh production costs with PV 12-17 cent /kWh FIT 13 cent /kWh So everbody who owns roofage and has a chance to consume electricity during daytime has a nice incentive to build PV, the business model will change from investment to optimizing self consumption. Next year we will see a low PV build, but this will improve in the next years. Each GW PV and on-shore wind destroy demand from the G4. |
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#387 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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Quote:
![]() I do have some questions for you, if you are up for it. I'll outline my process and would appreciate any tips that you are willing to share? ![]() Data gathering seems to be just about as important as analysis for making profitable decisions. Free is always good and so I regularly use sites such as Marketwatch (http://www.marketwatch.com/investing...countrycode=XE ), Finanzen.ch (http://www.finanzen.ch/aktien/E.ON-Aktie ), Yahoo Finance ( http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EONGY&ql=1 ), Google Finance ( http://www.google.com/finance?q=eong...Mi7DsHXqAGnjAE ), Seeking Alpha ( http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/eongy.pk ) and of course the company website (http://www.eon.com/en/investors.html ). Paid and unpaid newspaper subscriptions help with the macro background and trade newspapers and magazines help to further zoom in. Next, I am aware of and sometimes use, paid providers such as the Economist Intelligence Unit and Moody's Investors Service to further zero in on important nuances. In my mind a Bloomberg terminal would be the pinnacle of data gathering capability, but I have never used one (renting is pricey) so perhaps I am being captured by the hype. As to EON analysis, I have not done any homework but, I have read that ~35 percent of Euro energy comes from renewables and this figure is set to rise significantly over the next couple of decades. Geopolitics are very tough, and I suspect this is part of what is driving this significant effort towards self supplying energy via renewables. Fortunately debt is cheap at this time and EON appears to be able to sustain it's 35 billion Euro debt (or so) and I note that it has ~150 billion Euro in assets. Tangible book value per share is 7.76 Euro today, today's price at the moment is 14.27 Euro, the 52 week low is 14.05 Euro, around 14.3 million shares have changed hands today, and approximately 75,000 employees generated ~140 billion Euros in revenue last year. I have not compared these numbers with the typical utility in German or outside of Germany (such as EDF in France). Out of 38 analysts covering the stock, 13 say buy (I usually ignore these recommendations). What can I do better?
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#388 | |||
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 586
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Quote:
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You are also using pretty much the same ressources as I do, I have completely given up to listen to 'insider' information. Apart from the facts and the experience there is now a little nice story of a friend of mind. He became one of Americas 1% or less and sold a year or two ago part of the stock of the company in which he worked at less then 1/3 of the price I got only a month or so ago. He had of course far far more of it and invested considerable time in getting the decision right (he no longer works regulary) and despite all the odds favoring him luck and a layed back-approach worked this time better. Krugman had recently an entry on the issue in general. Kahnemann argues in a similar way. Obviously the discussion is about certain complex topics with a lot of uncertainty. In other areas expert knowledge and insider knowhow are golden. P.S: The German Wiki does have a decent overview of the history of E.ON. Needless to say that the Jahresabschluss is full of info. Maybe we could start a bit more detailed European discussion about it. In general I would say that Europe-wide the utilities are trading for low prices. The big question is of course if the those prices are low enough under their long-term value to give you a good margin of security. P.P.S: Eurokrise ebnet VW den Weg zur Herrschaft Quote:
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... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates" General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944); Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935 Last edited by Firn; 11-14-2012 at 04:34 PM. |
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#389 | ||||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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Quote:
In the meantime, here is a story that I am mulling over: U.S. Rethinks Security As Mideast Oil Imports Drop, by Tom Gjelten, Nov 14, 2012, NPR, http://www.npr.org/2012/11/13/165052...op?ft=1&f=1001 Quote:
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#390 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,976
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I'm always amazed that people think public info would be good for investing.
Whatever info is public IS PUBLIC. How is this supposed to offer an advantage over the others? |
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#391 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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@Fuchs
One doesn't have to cheat in order to win. ![]() There is gobs of public info out there and it is my sense that not all of that info gets to the market instantaneously nor efficiently (flying in the face of some of the tenants of the efficient market hypothesis ).Firn has rightly recommended Benjamin Graham's book the Intelligent Investor as worth a read. I second his recommendation...Mr. Market sometimes drops by with some craaazzzyyy pricing on stocks...enough value that one can later sell those same stocks and cover one's beer and pretzels expenses for the year.
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#392 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,976
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Surferbeetle, the people who buy or sell shares (and stuff) define the market price, not the ones who hold it.
The people who buy or sell can also be expected to have recently paid attention to news more than the holders. I understand others people who read financial news or listen to them on TV believe they have info, but this info is basically already priced in. Whatever unsystematic distortion happens between info and conclusion tends to affect both you and all the others (buyers, sellers) on average. The market price is already aggregated including the info you get from reading or watching public info. To believe that you get an advantage from such sources is about the same as to believe that you can process the info better than the one you're trading with. There's little reason to believe this to be systematically true. Professionals who spend 60 hrs/week with consuming, discussing and digesting publicly and non-publicly available information on a narrow segment of the market get rich if they're correct more than 51% of the time. It's in my opinion delusional to believe you can beat your trading partner this way. Or in another way: It's like believing that you can make profit in the betting market for sports because you are watching sports matches. Focus on avoiding systemic risks and on keeping fees small instead and enjoy life by not looking at your shares' development or useless financial "news" more than monthly or quarterly. A more thorough analysis makes only sense if you've got enough capital to diversify AND justify the expenses of a thorough analysis of a specific company, preferably a Ltd. |
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#393 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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Fuchs,
Appreciate the concern and words of wisdom. Savings/investing work is limited to low cost index funds only, and I am more on the cash side of late due to my concerns with our geopolitical situation. For fun, relaxation, and intellectual exercise I have about ten stocks which I follow and trade in from time to time. My limit is 'beer & pretzels' money only... if it all goes bad I can walk away without a glance back at what I placed on the table. E.ON is not one of these stocks since I have little or no knowledge regarding Euro utilities. ![]() Agree with you regarding the value of much of what passes for for 'news'. Regarding the efficient market hypothesis, what you state tracks with what I was taught in school and what I read in many of my various text & reference books. I am a bit of a heretic on this topic however as theory does not always appear to track with what I experience in the field. Let's just say that asymmetry exists....
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#394 |
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Council Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,976
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Asymmetry or not; the problem is you have no systemic reason why you should find yourself on the good end of asymmetry, rather than on the bad end.
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#395 | |
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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The world is a very big place, and we don't necessarily understand what we think we know. Along those lines:
What's the better way to invest—little by little, or all at once?, October 09, 2012, Vanguard, https://personal.vanguard.com/us/ins...eraging-102012 Quote:
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#396 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 586
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It is always nice to see some contra given. Anyway I will post the latest three trades, at least the price for which I got hopefully more value. Note that this concerns the small part of the portfolio wich is directly invested in equities. The far bigger equity part is in index funds, mostly of the (physical) ETF type.
E.ON: ~15 HP: ~10 Xerox: ~5 Buying fees are roughly 0.5%, portfolio fees 0.1%. Prices in €. Trades happened in the last two weeks. Obviously the sample is (too) small but it will be easier to manage. We will see how things go in a couple of years. Hopefully we will not have forgotten this thread, but maybe this might be a good thing as good news doesn't create as many posts. ![]() P.S: I just noted the almost perfect price scale of 5-10-15. Funny.
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... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates" General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944); Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935 |
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#397 | |||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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LNG Transport Ship Ob River (Dynagas LTD - Greece)
![]() Gas tanker Ob River attempts first winter Arctic crossing, By Matt McGrath, 25 November 2012 Last updated at 19:35 ET, BBC News, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20454757 Quote:
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Sapere Aude Last edited by Surferbeetle; 12-06-2012 at 12:15 AM. |
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#398 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 586
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The defeat of the Euro bond vigilantes?
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--- Looked again at those 3 stocks: Xerox 5.38 up from roughly 5 HP 10.77 up from roughly 10 - bough another third under 9.5 E.ON 14.04 down from roughly 15 - invested over a third today at +- that. GDF Suez lost over 10% today and highlights some general problems of the European utility market but also some specific French ones. In this case the French government is a major shareholder and limits the price GDF (and other companies) can ask for it's gas. GDF is fighting a legal battle Quote:
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... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates" General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944); Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935 Last edited by Firn; 12-06-2012 at 08:19 PM. |
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#399 |
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Council Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 586
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There was certainly trouble and Monti chose to act on his own by going to Napolitano....
Anyway the manovri di palazzo and with the parties have long started. The center-left candidate wants for good or not so noble reasons no "political" Monti, who could return as a leader of the center or center-right. He should conserve himself as technical choice for times of need. Piazza Affari was hard hit, the spread has also grown. While I have to give the the report a closer look everybody knows that Italy is no country for young women, even less so then for young men.
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... "We need officers capable of following systematically the path of logical argument to its conclusion, with disciplined intellect, strong in character and nerve to execute what the intellect dictates" General Ludwig Beck (1880-1944); Speech at the Kriegsakademie, 1935 |
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#400 | ||
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Council Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,111
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Some have suggested parallels between today's situation and Wagner's story of Lohengrin, Elsa of Brabant, and Telramund during the seasonal opening at La Scala.
La Scala under fire for choosing Wagner before Verdi in battle of the birthdays, Tom Kington in Rome, The Guardian, Tuesday 4 December 2012 15.00 EST, http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...r-verdi-battle_______________________ Profitably traded in and out of a French Bank with southern exposure earlier in the year, might go back in depending on how much/credible fear results from the current political uncertainty. ![]() Currently doing ok with a US construction/mining/diesel power equipment company (volatility is useful), wish I had picked up more just before the US election. ![]() ______________ The World In 2030: Asia Rises, The West Declines, by TOM GJELTEN, December 10, 2012, NPR, http://www.npr.org/2012/12/10/166895...-west-declines Quote:
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Earlimart - 10 Years, Youtube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRO8seMD-gU
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