Combat optics, iron sights and you

[120mm]

I recently had the opportunity to train on an Engagement Skills Trainer for an afternoon. We had a Brigade fail to show-up and the operator and I spent a lovely afternoon engaging photonic targets and learning more about combat shooting.

For those of you who do not know what it is, the Engagement Skills Trainer 2000 (or EST 2000, for short), is a big old video game that incorporates an entire squad, shooting semi-realistic small arms gunnery including recoil and incoming artillery.

I had three big takeaways from the training: 1. 3 hours is a looooong time to be in a firefight. The right side of my body was on fire for the rest of the night, and two days later it still aches. 2. Even with the limitations of technology, an experienced shooter can learn a lot about his/her bad habits from the computerized trainer. 3. Shooting with electronic optics will ruin your iron sight skills. Much to my own embarrassment, I kept losing my rear sight. Be advised that I have coached 3 position rifle at the collegiate level, build and own several AR target rifles, and was almost literally born with a rifle in my hand. And I repeatedly lost my rear sight while doing snap shooting. I almost feel like less of a man....

I blame technology. Modern optics are parallax free and allow for some superfast acquisition under all sorts of bad conditions. They also will help you unlearn basic skills in a hurry. I've been shooting almost exclusively with modern optics since 2002. As much as I love my EOTechs and Aimpoints, they go back on the shelf until I can engage targets consistently, and at speed with my irons.

[marct]

Hi 120,

Sounds like fun - there are days when I would really like to bang away with something like that .

I blame technology. Modern optics are parallax free and allow for some superfast acquisition under all sorts of bad conditions. They also will help you unlearn basic skills in a hurry. I've been shooting almost exclusively with modern optics since 2002. As much as I love my EOTechs and Aimpoints, they go back on the shelf until I can engage targets consistently, and at speed with my irons.

This will sound like an odd suggestion, but try your "retraining" where you are wearing some particular piece of clothing or jewelry (e.g. a ring or a hat or something like that) that you wouldn't wear when you shoot with the modern optics. The idea is to give your sub-conscious mind a sensory stimulus that is available in one situation but not the other, so that your brain stores the two sets of muscle memory in different places. The action of putting on or taking off the item will act as a cue to your sub-conscious.

Marc

[Tom Odom]

I recently had the opportunity to train on an Engagement Skills Trainer for an afternoon. We had a Brigade fail to show-up and the operator and I spent a lovely afternoon engaging photonic targets and learning more about combat shooting.

For those of you who do not know what it is, the Engagement Skills Trainer 2000 (or EST 2000, for short), is a big old video game that incorporates an entire squad, shooting semi-realistic small arms gunnery including recoil and incoming artillery.

I had three big takeaways from the training: 1. 3 hours is a looooong time to be in a firefight. The right side of my body was on fire for the rest of the night, and two days later it still aches. 2. Even with the limitations of technology, an experienced shooter can learn a lot about his/her bad habits from the computerized trainer. 3. Shooting with electronic optics will ruin your iron sight skills. Much to my own embarrassment, I kept losing my rear sight. Be advised that I have coached 3 position rifle at the collegiate level, build and own several AR target rifles, and was almost literally born with a rifle in my hand. And I repeatedly lost my rear sight while doing snap shooting. I almost feel like less of a man....

I blame technology. Modern optics are parallax free and allow for some superfast acquisition under all sorts of bad conditions. They also will help you unlearn basic skills in a hurry. I've been shooting almost exclusively with modern optics since 2002. As much as I love my EOTechs and Aimpoints, they go back on the shelf until I can engage targets consistently, and at speed with my irons.

I would also suggest skeet, trap, or sporting clay shooting because wing shooting makes the shooter's eye the rear site. It reinforces consistent stock weld and follow through, both of which cater to better use of iron sights.

Tom

[slapout9]

120mm, If you can find some old training materials from late 60's to early 70's on snap shooting as it was taught in basic training you will find that you should not be using your rear sight at all. My BCT class in 72 started with BB guns shooting at metal disk thrown in the air from there we progressed to the M-16 which had a piece of wood placed over the front and rear sights (something like a long ruler) and then went on the range to shoot live rounds. I used to have some literature on this but maybe someone can find it online somewhere, the theory behind it is pretty interesting.

[Tom Odom]

Slap,

the TTPs were referred to as "Quick Kill" (at least in the Marine Corps). My brother taught me the technique using a Ruger 10/22. And it is very much like shooting a shotgun albeit without the swing as you are "snap" shooting a single point in space.

Tom

[sullygoarmy]

120mm- The EST is a GREAT training tool. You can put soldiers in multiple scenarios from a checkpoint to an urban defense to shoot/no-shoot engagements. Plus you can use just about every weapon in the army inventory to do training from the M9 pistol to the Mark 19! We used the EST back when I was a CO CDR as part of the Pre-Marksmenship Instructions (PMI). We found a significant improvement in not only qualification scores, but also during MOUT live-fires since the soldiers had increased confidence in his abilities, safety manipulation and more training time.

Tom has a great point about shooting skeet. I took lessons for the first time last summer and the instructor was always looking to see if a new student "got" lead. He said alot of shooters, especially those who normally shoot at static targets, have a hard time computing lead while trying to get in front of a target. I found my shooting skills greatly improved after lessons and joining the skeet league here on post. Definately a fun way to improve your shooting skills while blasting clay targets!

[slapout9]

Tom, I found a reference "Rifle Quick Kill US Army TT-23-71-1" if someone can find it. I imagine it is long out of print but I do not know for sure. I do know the technique works as advertised, it usually amazes people because they don't think it will but about hour later they will usually be convinced.

[marct]

Wikipedia has an interesting article here, and there is a link to FM 3-22.9 which may be of use. I can only find for purchase copies of the TT 23-71-1 (also available here).

Marc

[Stan]

There's a good piece here from Army CWO Michael Haugen on Optics

http://www.boomershoot.org/general/ChoosingOptics.htm

[Ender]

I was always very leery of the EOTechs et al specifically for the reasons mentioned here. I found the EOTechs fogged on me and I have always been hesitant to rely on anything that takes batteries. Aimpoints are very nice but like you guys have already said optics like this erode your fundamental skills.

For OIF II I went with the ACOG (I had an M4/203 combo) and LOVED it. Initially I wanted one of the sexy new ninja sights but learned very quickly that this little beast was where it was at. It had just enough magnification to enable me to get a clearer picture of what was out there but not so much that it prevented me from being able to engage in the close fight. (With DA, CQB roles and presentation drills I would aim "slightly high" and put rounds exactly where I wanted them.) I found that even after using the ACOG I could pop it off and fire iron sights with the same level of proficiency because even with the little scope I still had to have sight alignment, sight picture which equated to front/rear sight alignment with iron sights so very few of the good habits were erased. The lens itself is large enough to facilitate rapid target acquisition and I never had a problem with using the scope and my NOD's either so that was another plus...

One last thing on that little optic... once it is dialed in that sucker will dot "i's" and cross "t's" if you want it to... near or far.

[120mm]

Ender,

Did you ever use the "iron sights" molded into the top of the ACOG for CQB? I ask, because I didn't go to the ACOG because of some of the issues with magnification and CQB. Perhaps I decided too quickly.

[Uboat509]

The iron sights on the top of the ACOG are crap. Most of the guys I know who use the ACOG (myself included) either have taught themselves to aquire the sight very qucikly throught the scope or they use what is called Jpoint which is simply a red dot sight that sits where the iron sight would go (it actually screws into the same holes). This is what I use and I really like it. It takes some getting used to at first because it sits higher but you can actually aquire the picture quicker. I just put a 10 meter zero on the Jpoint and get my hold off out to 25 meters and beyond that I have the ACOG. It is a pretty good system.

SFC W

[Ender]

120mm,

Uboat is right on the money, I did something very similar to my rig (because he is right those sights are crap) and was able to acquire that sight lead with only a little practice... I think his Jpoint suggestion is an excellent one and would have definitely added it if I could. In the right hands this setup makes a shooter surgical at almost any range.

One last thing about the ACOG that can not be said enough, I don't know why I didn't say it earlier, they are RUGGED. I put mine through hell and always had this mental itch to check my zero but the dope was always good...they are made simply and solidly.

[Ender]

I would also like to add that Tom's point about skeet, trap etc... is solid. I dated a girl in Lejeune whose father hunted everything that moved. He turned me on to skeet and so many of my skills were honed in the months we shot together.

I can not think of a better exercise for instinctive shooting, overall barrell/sight alignment, target lead or sheer enjoyment. Hitting the pigeon with a pellet or two is nice but nothing says "fun" like literally turning 25 flying objects into flying dust from a variety of angles.

[goesh]

I always found sniping turtles on a pond, head shots, at long range with a .22 was a good workout. the turtles were pretty safe. Poor man's skeet using heavy washers is a good workout too using a .22

[Tom Odom]

I can not think of a better exercise for instinctive shooting, overall barrell/sight alignment, target lead or sheer enjoyment. Hitting the pigeon with a pellet or two is nice but nothing says "fun" like literally turning 25 flying objects into flying dust from a variety of angles.

I wish I did turn 25 to dust but at least the ones I miss break when they hit the ground. Shooting a 28 gauge, I feel content when I am in the "20s" and joyous when I break 23.

I always found sniping turtles on a pond, head shots, at long range with a .22 was a good workout. the turtles were pretty safe. Poor man's skeet using heavy washers is a good workout too using a .22

I have a pond at my house and the turtles would take over if I did not reduce the herd. I just built a custom 10/22 for the job, set up to take .22 Shorts, that does the job nicely. Basic ballistics mean that a .22 Short CB 29 grain round hits harder than a .177 cal 7 grain pellet. A pellet traveling at a muzzle velocity of 1000 FPS just won't penetrate a shell with a half inch of water over it at 25 to 30 yards; the 29 grain .22 bullet at a muzzle velocity of 710 FPS does so with a solid wallop.

The real bottom line in all of this is something everyone knows; the more you shoot, the better you get at it. I guess I am too much of a neanderthal to get into simulation; I like the smell of the gunpowder or the oily smell of a heated barrel. Smells like....victory!

Tom

[arty8]

As a squad leader currently serving in an MP Company in Iraq, honestly, I think the problem is almost the exact opposite—very few soldiers in the Army really understand how to boresight, zero, use and maintain the optics and lasers issued to them. Soldiers, even initial entry, have shot hundreds of rounds thru iron sights, but most have not shot a single round using an M68 or ACOG.

During the mob and train up for this deployment I too had a chance to shoot on an EST and I thought it was great. At our mob station our company shot the Army CQB course and we fired it again in Kuwait, good stuff. However, a class on boresighting the M68 at the mob station would have been great. My unit didn’t zero our M68 CCO’s until we arrived at our FOB in Iraq. I was the only one in the company to construct a boresight board and boresighted the entire platoon’s M68’s, consequently our zeroing was finished in hours, other platoons took an entire day. My company in Iraq has a dizzying array of optics and lasers, CCO’s, ACOG’s, some MARS optical sights, PEQ2 and PAQ4 lasers. Few soldiers take the time to read the manual. “Spray and pray” is an unfortunate reality.

While in Iraq I noticed something wrong, most units didn’t take advantage of issued equipment. My platoon was the only one to mount our PAQ4 lasers to our M2 .50 cal machine guns. Some of my soldiers found the mounts abandoned in a recently vacated barracks. Used in conjunction with our AN/PVS 14 passive night sights, our gunners can night fire as accurate as daytime, resulting in more kills and less collateral damage. Although this technique required effort, I had to consult the 2002 SAIB for the proper offsets, it’s proved useful.

I currently carry an M4 with a CCO and backup iron sight and have shot hundreds of round with both. Simply putting the dot the target and not having to worry about aligning anything else is a relief.

[Tom Odom]

Arty,

If you can go to the CALL NIPR site and you can download CALL Newsletter 06-16 Company-level SOSO Vol 6 which deals with Tactical Marksmanship, Sniper and Counter Sniper. Also look at Own the Night 2 on NODs and sights. You may already have these but they may help others who have not seen them.

Tom

[carl]

I suggest a Trijicon Reflex sight. It is ideal for police use since there are normally no real long shots to take. It has no batteries, is intuitive and quick to use, can take a beating and holds the zero. Precise shots, at the range, out to 200 yds. were so easy they were boring. 300 yds and out, I couldn't make out the target but somebody with good eyes would have no trouble. Also if for some reason you need to use the iron sights, just look through the tube (I used a flip up rear sight and left the front sight in place when I set up my AR).

I have had a long standing interest in the Luepold CQB (I think that is what it is called) sight, the one that can go from zero to 3X magnification. Does anybody know if those work well?

[Uboat509]

I have no first hand knowledge but when I suggested trying one of them to my company SGM he told me that some of them have a problem in that when you change the magnification, the reticle moves. Zeroed at 1 power may not be zeroed at 4 power.

SFC W