A civil war in Islam?

[Sarajevo071]

Really? This is the first I've heard of any serious coup attempt. Do you have any sources for this?

Hello Marct,

Yes I do. I saw interview with Robert Baer, former CIA field agent, on “60 minutes” where he said that story and how Washington shut him down, order him home where he was put under arrest… I try to find original, full story to post for others (I heaved all that but lost with my HD crash some time ago) and all I find tonight are this references:

BAER: This general was proposing to kill Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER (voice-over): Bob Baer, retired from the CIA after serving as a field agent in some of the world's hottest spots for more than 20 years. One of them was Northern Iraq in the mid 90's. A defecting Iraqi general close to Saddam's inner circle pitched him a plan.

BAER: His plan was to wait for Saddam's convoy to come from Baghdad going to Tikrit. Saddam has a couple of houses around Tikrit. And when the convoy got the bridge, it goes into Samarra. They were going to block up both ends of the bridge -- Saddam's car in the middle -- and proceed to shoot it up until nobody moved in his convoy.
…

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../17/cp.00.html

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One person who wasn't surprised by the latest flap was former top CIA Middle East field officer Bob Baer, who worked with Chalabi when the latter was in northern Iraq in 1995.

Soon after a meeting with Chalabi, Baer was recalled to Washington to face an FBI criminal investigation into the charge that he had violated Executive Order 12333, issued by President Reagan in 1981, forbidding the assassination of foreign leaders by U.S. intelligence personnel.

Baer was accused, he said, of hatching a plot to kill Saddam Hussein, except the plot was a "total and complete fabrication of Chalabi's," Baer said.
He then referred to the account in his book, "See No Evil," in which Chalabi met with two Iranian intelligence officers, telling them that the National Security Council under senior Clinton adviser Anthony Lake, had dispatched an "NSC team" to northern Iraq to get rid of Saddam.

According to the account, which Baer confirmed for UPI, Chalabi staged a fake phone call in the middle of the meeting with the Iranians, but left a forged letter, written on NSC stationary out on the table for the Iranians to read.
….
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/000743.html

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Robert Baer had a surefire attention-getter for the 150 or so Culver Academies students he spoke to Thursday night.

He just told them about the time he tried to kill Saddam Hussein.

Not him, personally, but the handpicked team of Iraqi Army officers, Kurdish rebels, and assorted Saddam opponents he handpicked for the job in 1995 as part of his work as a CIA operative; a job in which he spent 21 years traveling to some of the nastiest places on the globe and doing things that could have come right out of a spy novel.
….
http://www.culver.org/news/News_Arti...icial_Baer.htm

I know this is not exactly what I wanted to show you but you will get idea what I heaved in mind. I will not stop looking for more info…

As for the claims of the sanctions killing 500k children, this is a typical rhetorical claim that never looks at the actual causes of sanctions related deaths, i.e. how the actual resources were being distributed during the sanctions period.

Madeline Albright was asked whether the over half a million children killed by the [Iraqi] sanctions were "worth it." Her response was:
"It’s a hard choice, but I think, we, think, it’s worth it." [60 Minutes, May 11, 1996]

Of course, you will see something else in it but to me (and many others) this is admission that U.S. sanctions kill 500,000 Iraqi kids under age of 5 and that U.S. Administration didn’t care for the kids or any other innocent Iraqis.

Marct, I agree with you about guilt of Saddam and his cronies and no one defending that moron. But you can not blame victims for something that did not exist before U.S. led sanctions.

Do you know that under sanctions Iraq could not even get to import simple pencils since it was graphite in pencils!? Or simple medications!? Or parts for machines to fix water and sewage… Illness and malnutrition and radiological poisoning and illnesses that was NEVER in Iraq under Saddam!

“Fire This Time: U.S. War Crimes in Gulf” is interesting book for you to read and find all those fine and simple details that will explain you sanctions and consequences much better then me today. In war between Bush and Saddam innocent kids and civilians pay the price. It was much better way to deal with Iraq and Saddam but U.S. choose this way on purpose! 2 nights ago even Tenent said that U.S. was gunning after Iraq and Saddam right on September 12!?

That says allot.

How far back do you want to go in this type of a blame game? Who is the "outsider" here?
...
You know, I had a long chat with a friend of mine as I was going off to the Mosque on Friday (no, I'm not Muslim - I'm trying to learn Arabic and more about Islam). He was telling me about the Muslim invasion of Andalusia - I was telling him about the Visigoth Kingdom that they invaded (my family is descended from there). We managed to have a very civilized discussion about the entire "invasion thing", despite the probability that our ancestors slaughtered each other. We could both look back at historical events that, for each of us, had great meaning - they "lived" in us. At the same time, we were not controlled by those events, and that is what I see this rhetoric of "blame" and "insider / outsider" creating - a situation where people are controlled by history and not people who create history.

Ah, c’mon… We don’t have a civil conversation here!? Give the credit where credit is due.

Marct, you mention “outsiders” in Iraq, obviously using Western propaganda about “foreign fighters” in Iraq (even that CIA and other services saying that they number is minor and that Iraqi Resistance is almost all domestic, and trying to put blame on them like they start this war and trouble in Iraq!?), and I humble remind you that FIRST “outsider” soldiers in Iraq was U.S. lead invasion troops… Islamic volunteers came after.

Usually . The problem here, as you pointed out with your Kurdish example, is that Iraq is a multi-sided conflict. But I could ask he same of the Shia and Sunni - how could they ever be allies with some much mutual killing?

But Sunni groups that killing Shias and Shias that killing Sunni are not allies. Only those groups that didn’t bought into sectarian conflict can and they do working together.

Howe can a Muslim ally with someone, such as the ISI, who is killing them? And in what numbers and with what tactics? I don't see the US or coalition forces planting IEDs, suicide bombers, chlorine gas attacks in marketplaces and death squads; and I do see radical Muslim groups using all of these tactics.

There are some reports (Robert frisk being one of them) that even picture about that is not so clear… And, who ever when thru war knows how war looks like what is all possible in it, that that simple truth is – no one is 100% “clean”. Plus, I spend enough time in talks with former member of CIA team (he is Canadian, BTW) and I know work he did in Lebanon pretending to be Hezbollah group, doing things to damage they reputations… until almost whole his team got wipe out and he barely survived thanks to Shia Muslim who shelter him and save him and his buddy.

BTW, do we need to mention Falluja and use of chemical agents by U.S. forces there!? Or to go back and remember all those aerial bombings of market places, houses, weddings, columns...!? So, yeah, even coalition troops (if not with same "tools") getting same "scores" in war against Iraqi civilians.

To my mind, the issue is not one of "why would you ally with someone who as killed you" but, rather, "why would you ally with someone who not only kills you but terrorizes you"?

Are we not witnessing splits and fights and bad rhetoric between different groups in Resistance?! That surely coming from that dispute… I would say (since I don’t know for sure and since I have no contact with Resistance) that no one liked AQI’s idea of attacking Shiites (even leaders of AQ rebuffed them about it) but they was confused who is really placing all those bombs on markets and bound by ruling that no Muslims should be accused of something if there is no evidence for that deed.

And, if you let yourself remember, all those open attacks on civilians came much later. In mean time U.S. forces (either regular troops either mercenary) killed people on streets, in they homes, bomb them, they weddings, kill them on check points, in protest marches… That turns people away from U.S. toward Resistance. When AQI came around (also like respond on Shia death squads) it was all ready late to choose sides. Battle lines were drawn.

BTW, in ISI there is bunch of other groups who are not doing what AQI doing so seams Iraqi people are not against ISI or Resistance but they getting fed up with AQ.

But, again, what I know!? I am not there not do I have contact with them...