Could some one explain how the democratically elected President has to flee and why did that happen?
Who organised such a situation that a democratically elected President is forced to flee. Who forced such a situation?
In India and I take it that in western countries too, democracy is the lifeline of life.
So, what really happened and why?
The issue is very foggy out where I reside.
Ray:
If you are talking about the guy who got kicked out a few months ago, he severely wore out his welcome and got the boot. He just stole too much and murdered too much. Only Putin would have him.
Democracy isn't a panacea. Sometimes the wrong guy gets elected and things have to be modified. The world surely regrets that Germans didn't modify things in 1933 and 1934.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
Well, when one sings paeans about democracy, then one should follow the norms, no matter how bad it is.Originally Posted by carl
Ballot and not the bullet or illegal chucking out is what we hear out here as the way to democracy.
Can't have double standards, can we?
If that was so, then it is - You're either with us, or against us.
Would that be democratic?
Look at the chaos that is going on in the name of democracy in Iraq and Syria.
The Taliban or AQ has taken hold.
is that what is democracy and justice all about?
I am a bystander and not involved. However, all these interventions are creating conditions that only add to the strife and with no solutions.
Let the ballots decide and not what one thinks is right and imposes.
if a wrong guy gets elected, just to bad. That is what is democracy all about - free choice, right? Or is democracy getting the 'right guy' elected? And who is the one to decide who is the 'right guy'. The outsiders who have their own agenda?
Churchill had said - "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
Last edited by Ray; 06-12-2014 at 11:19 AM.
Cited in part:Ray,
Wikipedia has an extensive explanation and on a quick review should help you:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution There's always the BBC!
davidbfpo
I would not go with what Wiki has to say.
And never by the Bluff and Bluster Corporation.
Neither was I taken in by such esoteric compassion about spreading 'Freedom and Democracy- in Iraq or elsewhere, because the same compassion was not shown for the Rwanda Genocide where 500,000–1,000,000 Rwandans were killed in 100 days and which was worse than Iraq!
I would rather go by this forum since it allows various views and that I why I enjoy visiting it regularly and ask others to join.
As i have mentioned before that while I am not comfortable with the Russian actions in Crimea, I am also not comfortable with the manner in which the West has subverted democracy in Ukraine, more so when they shout from the rooftops about Freedom and Democracy.
One cannot have double standards. The West did the same when Hamas was elected in Palestine. One was aware that Hamas was no Cherub, but then democracy is paramount or so one feels.
Or see what is happening in Iraq today.
Take the issue of Kosovo. Now, it that was legal, then is Crimea also legal?
The whole thing is all about jockeying for strategic space cloaked with false sweet sounding political and compassionate rhetoric.
Neither side is clean as a whistle.
And yet all this is confusing; more so, when one is not involved and yet it can have international ramifications even in places not affected.
Last edited by Ray; 06-12-2014 at 11:42 AM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS3sBIyhvnI
Ukrainian army shells Semenovka with phosphorous ammo (they say it looks like one, does anyone here can prove it?)
Last edited by mirhond; 06-12-2014 at 01:43 PM.
Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.
Tanks under Russian flag in Ukraine city Donetsk suburb Maeevka.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q977zU2J1ww
Easy to say from a place heir to the English tradition, not so easy to do in other parts of the world that are not heir to that tradition. That is why I mentioned Germany circa 1933 and 1934. Sometimes the 'one man, one vote, one time' boys get elected, then the need for modifying things on the fly arises.
"We fight, get beat, rise, and fight again." Gen. Nathanael Greene
I don't wish to go OT, but then I am only going by US claims of Freedom and Democracy.
Democracy as I understand is the will of the people and that is indicated by the ballot box. The vote is applicable in all forms of democracy.
Others may not be heirs to the British traditions, but then they still do it by the ballot box.
And even democracies that claim to be purer than the snow of Mount Etna, are not free from aberrations either.
I rather not quote examples.
That said, I am most uncomfortable with the manner in which the leader of Ukraine was removed as also the manner in which Crimea joined Russia.
One was made to flee by muscle power, and the other by muscle power upheld the sanctity of the ballot.
Very odd and very perplexing indeed!
Last edited by Ray; 06-13-2014 at 08:32 AM.
mirhond---man where do you get your info---that was a fake film released by the FSB---the video use of WP shells was actually a video of the Israeli's using these munitions in Gaza during their previous incursion.
Film released by the Israeli's was the exact film being reported by Russian media---get real man.
mirhond--so did your President Putin "lie" to the world about giving orders to the FSB and the Border Security Forces to close the Russian border crossings to "foreign fighters" because you claim they are not Russian, and armored vehicles.
Guess Putin can no longer tell the truth from fiction but being a Czar I guess allows for lying.
So mirhond---still saying Russia is not an aggressor? Guess the dead Russian SF member with his death photo/social media data was not enough proof for you.
Tanks and Armored Vehicles crossing from Russia
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov says that columns with military equipment from the Russian Federation penetrate the border through captured checkpoints on the eastern border of Ukraine.
“Intelligence data and data of the corresponding observation: we see that in the last 3 days, despite claims of the Russian Federation that they welcome the peace process and that they instructed to strengthen the border control, in particular in the area of Diakovo, penetration of columns into Ukraine continues on checkpoints captured by terrorists,” – said Avakov at a briefing in Kyiv on Thursday.
“We recorded the passage of convoys with APCs and cars, including armoured vehicles with artillery units, through these checkpoints,” – added the minister.
At the same time, Avakov confirmed reports, which appeared earlier in the media, that a passage of three tanks across the border took place on Thursday. After crossing the border, they were in Snejnoye, Donetsk region. “After that, two of them moved towards Gorlivka and were attacked by our Armed Forces,” – said the Head of the MIA.
The Minister noted that currently the fight is still going on. “I can not say more about the final result, I can only say that a part of the column is destroyed,” – said Avakov.
irhond---is this news report the truth or a falsehood? The Russian Military Star media claims it is the "truth".
Will be more than happy to provide you the Star photos and the photos from Gaza so you can compare.
The ATO Centre once again has to conclude that the Russian media have resorted to a distortion of facts and use of videos dated many years ago, which have no relation to the on-going anti-terrorist operation in Ukraine. All this is done to manipulate the public opinion in their own interests. At the same time the authors of fakes are not bothered about concerns of peaceful people affected by such propaganda. The spokesman of the ATO Vladislav Seleznev wrote about this on his Facebook page.
Thus, today, June 12, 2014 the Russian media reported that the Ukrainian Security Forces allegedly used phosphorus bombs against civilians. To confirm this, the Russian Armed Forces Broadcasting Company “STAR” used footage shot in 2004 in the city of Fallujah, Iraq. In addition to that, the Russian media has recently reported on alleged facts of use of multiple launch rocket systems “Grad” by the Ukrainian troops against civilians.
This information is also untrue. There are no documented facts of the ATO Forces using systems “Grad”. All these speculations are more surprising given the fact that the Russian troops used positions “Grad” for attacks on cities of the Chechen Republic. As a result, tens of thousands of civilians were killed. These facts are well known to the world community, they are fixed at numerous photo and video materials.
It is worth recalling another case of falsification. On May 16 the channel Russia 1 used in a news release a video of two years ago on Kabardino-Balkaria counterterrorist operations, but these pictures were presented as an operation of the Ukrainian ATO Forces. This fraud is documented. (InfoResist reported on this earlier)
The ATO Centre considers the emergence of such materials as one of the links of the information war being waged against the Ukrainian mass media by the media of the Russian Federation.
The ATO Centre contends that the warfare that Russia applies in their own counter-terrorist operations, particularly against the civilian population of Chechnya, will never be applied on the territory of Ukraine.
We demand that the Russian media stops all the speculation on these topics and move to a civilized method of coverage of the events in the area of the ATO.
News from the website of the TV company “Star”:
“The National Guard fired phosphorous bombs in Semenivka.
Ukrainian Army fired at village Semenivka, which is near Slovyansk. It was incendiary shelling. Charges exploded at a low altitude, and then divided into several burning parts. As a result, there were several fires in the village.”
Ray---thought the former Ukrainian President fled his own country as he was afraid that he might be charged with massive corruption and stealing from the Ukrainian people and had as I understood it not even informed his own political Party of the Regions of his decision to flee ---taking based on some reports millions in USDs and kilos of gold bars in five KAMAZ trucks.
His own 27 year old son with no formal business education went inside three years from a nothing to a billionaire---ever wonder how?
Then when the Ukrainian Parliament got official news of his fleeing the country-- remember he contacted no one-- they the parliament then took a vote to depose him from his elected office using the correct paragraphs from the 2004 Ukrainian Constitution which had been reinstated as [art of the 21 Feb agreement. Russians call this a coup--- the West calls it democracy or the will of the people if you ask me.
Also of interest the vote was a super majority vote (0ver 350 for deposing) by the delegates there and it included Yes votes from every member of his own political party---the Party of Regions so his own party deposed him as well something the Russians seem to forget.
One must fully understand before one questions history.
It's actually T-64 MBT, still on duty in Ukrainian army, I believe Ukrainian technical sergeants just sold this three ones to separatists
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=T-yHL3B16aU
Interview with Bezler and Ukrainian IF colonel held captive by separatists - government does not give a fu(k to POWs and won't going to exchange them, some privates just personally handed to their parents.
upd.
Another video for ever rejecting Outlaw - incendiary shells falling at Semenovka . I believe next time I could provide you with civilians burned alive with white phosphor, may be it'll satiate your lust for gore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=V4zX8AzidOE
Witness says it were illuminating rounds used as incendiary.
Last edited by mirhond; 06-13-2014 at 07:34 PM.
Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.
mirhond, about this tank model and Ukraine in Russian.
http://censor.net.ua/news/289788/ter...ony_rf_tymchuk
I am only interested in democratic principle since that is tomtomed by western nations as their Holy Grail.
And because that is what has sustained my country.
In this world corruption, nepotism, crony capitalism and all the evils of society happens everywhere. Some places, less and some places, more. No country is free from it and to feel that is not true, would be another arrogance of false superiority.
As far as Ukraine is concerned, every Govt was corrupt and they all stashed away their fortunes. The last one was no better.
The Ukrainian top man fled. Now, why did he flee? Who flees when there is no danger to his person? If he had such fortunes as you claim, it would be no problems to manipulate a verdict. If he fled even then, when all was peace and quiet, then he must be daft.
Therefore, that line of argument does not gel.
I am not partisan and I don't care which side wins. Lest one feels that in India we are pro Russia, then that would be totally incorrect, given the new political and strategic equations.
I am more interested in geostrategy. Please note, that in the modern context, to organise a revolt (for the want of a better word), it requires organisation, money and weapons. There is hardly any chance of it coming to one through some mystic magic. It requires support.
For example, Solidarity persisted solely as an underground organization, supported by the Catholic Church and the US. That is documented.
Kosovo did not happen out of the blue, or for that matter, the Colour Revolutions.
It is geostrategy that pressured the rise of such events.
Likewise, for one to believe that Ukraine and Crimea are the 'will of the people' alone, it too hard to believe. Both required assistance and both got, even if by rival sides.
If indeed and if the elections have to be fair, it requires an international (and that does not mean western or Russian predominance or sponsored 'neutrals') monitoring.
Further, if all in Ukraine was with the present Govt, then how come the East Ukrainians are in revolt? I would not be surprised if Russians are encouraging them, but then there sure is a sizeable population that finds the current Ukrainian disposition not to their liking.
So let there be genuine Freedom and Democracy.
Let there be the ballot which talks and that too with monitors from non pro Western and non pro Russian countries.
I daresay, I am too far removed from history, though I concede that history is written by the victor (as is the case of WW I and WW !!) by the colonial powers (as in the case of colonies of imperial powers) and by the inclinations of the one who is writing and the Govt that gives credence to such history!
History of this conflict will surely be different from the perspective of Russian historians and that from the perspective of the Western historians.
The question will be - who is right!
Take the case of China. It was a horrid repressive regime and one to be hated.
But then it became placid and pleasant once the West was allowed a free run.
All, is but perceptions and national interests!
That is why I steer clear of all this moral claptrap and instead look at logical reasoning in the realm of a level playing field as far as it is humanly feasible.
Last edited by Ray; 06-14-2014 at 10:25 AM.
Ray:
Ray, shouldn't be the purpose to try to minimize those negative things in every society? Isn't this making societies better place to live? In 1991 Poland and Ukraine were at the same level in economical terms.In this world corruption, nepotism, crony capitalism and all the evils of society happens everywhere. Some places, less and some places, more. No country is free from it and to feel that is not true, would be another arrogance of false superiority.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debat...ine-a-way-out/Poland and Ukraine had very similar starting points when the Soviet system disintegrated. In 1990, Poland’s per capita gross domestic product was $1,693, and Ukraine’s was $1,569. The derisive term polnische Wirtschaft signaled a state economy characterized by chronic shortages, hyperinflation, corruption and abysmal living standards.
Within less than a decade Poland become a star performer in the region. Now it’s also a star performer within the European Union — routinely posting growth figures that have outpaced older members of that club. In 2012, Poland’s per capita GDP of $12,820 was more than triple that of Ukraine’s $3,867. That laid the groundwork for a truly independent country that could chart its own course.
Until November last year the president, who escaped to Russia, promised to his people to start the road that Poland took 1991. After several meetings and long hours of discussions with Putin, Yanukovich said no to this route. This is what happened on the Kiev streets
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...to-333287.html
Later things got worse and now we are here
In the shadow of the World Cup in Brazil and the new crisis in Iraq, the situation in Ukraine has become more serious. For the first time pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country have been supplied with heavy weapons. The latest reports say that separatists even shot down a Ukrainian military plane with at least 49 people on board in the early hours of Saturday (14.06.2014).http://www.dw.de/russias-slow-invasi...ine/a-17706523Alexander Golz says Russia wants maximum destablization of Ukraine
Moscow military analyst Alexander Golz also does not currently see a Russian invasion in eastern Ukraine. "The scale of events speaks against this," he told DW. "It looks more like a classic covert operation."
It would only be possible to speak of an "invasion" if not only individual military advisers or tanks, but entire units were used - as in Crimea. "Russia has abandoned the invasion plans and wants maximum destabilization of Ukraine " Golz said. The reason is the inadequate resources of the Russian army and the western threats of sanctions.
Half of the people wanted to make their society European like, second half wanted to join Putins pet project Eurasian union. Was this the moment of crisis of political system that couldn't solve the dilemma? Seems this way ...
NATO RELEASES IMAGERY: RAISES QUESTIONS ON RUSSIA’S ROLE IN PROVIDING TANKS TO UKRAINE
14 Jun 2014
http://aco.nato.int/statement-on-rus...tle-tanks.aspx
Indeed that is so.Ray, shouldn't be the purpose to try to minimize those negative things in every society? Isn't this making societies better place to live? In 1991 Poland and Ukraine were at the same level in economical terms.
But then one cannot be Jesus to save the world.
There are many countries in Africa and Asia that requires to be 'saved'. But none care. Guess why? Geostrategic compulsions that drive the national interest of those who 'come to help' and nothing more.
I think that is what I call ‘moralising’. Honestly, I am not being obtuse, but why can we not speak upfront and instead cloak issues with moral high standing?
Freedom and Democracy – the war cry for Iraq - and whatever you say as the rationale for Ukraine - is actually pleasant and high morality smokescreen as a cover for the reality – geostrategic necessity - and that is about all. That was for Poland and so was it for Kosovo and so was it for the whole of East Europe.
And no way it affected me and so I am not partisan.
It is just the same for Russia in annexing Crimea – geostrategy.
Just one example from my part of the country.
India was plagued by foreign assisted terrorism. None cared and felt that it was bogus. When 9/11 hit the US, it became such a cause célèbre that it lead to GWOT and either you are with us or against us. Only the wearer knows where the shoe pinches.
That is all very fine.Quote:
Poland and Ukraine had very similar starting points when the Soviet system disintegrated. In 1990, Poland’s per capita gross domestic product was $1,693, and Ukraine’s was $1,569. The derisive term polnische Wirtschaft signaled a state economy characterized by chronic shortages, hyperinflation, corruption and abysmal living standards.
Within less than a decade Poland become a star performer in the region. Now it’s also a star performer within the European Union — routinely posting growth figures that have outpaced older members of that club. In 2012, Poland’s per capita GDP of $12,820 was more than triple that of Ukraine’s $3,867. That laid the groundwork for a truly independent country that could chart its own course.
http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debat...ine-a-way-out/
Can you justify why such liberal compassion was and still is not being shown for Rwanda or other African countries who are in dire requirement for western compassion to bring all at par and economically vibrant as Poland to become stsr performers?
Well, Obama promised many things and so it Cameron. How much have they delivered? If Yanukovivh after deliberation changed tack, then maybe he had some reasons to do so. Or the fact that he did it with Putin and not Obama is the reason for the ire of the West?Until November last year the president, who escaped to Russia, promised to his people to start the road that Poland took 1991. After several meetings and long hours of discussions with Putin, Yanukovich said no to this route. This is what happened on the Kiev streets
Whatever makes you feel that the West alone knows what is good for the world and the peoples? Take a look at what has happened in the Middle East and Afghanistan? The West wanted to superimpose their idea of life and governance, See the mess that lhe West has landed them in and it is not only going to affect the West, but the whole world.
As ganulv said every country is unique. Indeed it is. One has to apply one’s mind to that culture, custom, tradition, political thought of that country before applying one’s own ideals.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...to-333287.html
Later things got worse and now we are here
Quote:
In the shadow of the World Cup in Brazil and the new crisis in Iraq, the situation in Ukraine has become more serious. For the first time pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country have been supplied with heavy weapons. The latest reports say that separatists even shot down a Ukrainian military plane with at least 49 people on board in the early hours of Saturday (14.06.2014).
Quote:
Alexander Golz says Russia wants maximum destablization of Ukraine
Moscow military analyst Alexander Golz also does not currently see a Russian invasion in eastern Ukraine. "The scale of events speaks against this," he told DW. "It looks more like a classic covert operation."
It would only be possible to speak of an "invasion" if not only individual military advisers or tanks, but entire units were used - as in Crimea. "Russia has abandoned the invasion plans and wants maximum destabilization of Ukraine " Golz said. The reason is the inadequate resources of the Russian army and the western threats of sanctions.
http://www.dw.de/russias-slow-invasi...ine/a-17706523
How is the European way the best?Half of the people wanted to make their society European like, second half wanted to join Putins pet project Eurasian union. Was this the moment of crisis of political system that couldn't solve the dilemma? Seems this way ...
Belarusians and Russians are considered the closest relatives of Ukrainians, while Rusyns are either considered another closely related group, or an ethnic subgroup of Ukrainians.
If that is true, then they have greater similarity with the Russian mindset than that of the Germans or the French and least of all of the stiff upper lip British!
Hence, hardly akin to the EU mindset.
Ever since Powell whipped out the photos in the UN to show that Saddam had WMD which we all believed as the Gospel being from the greatest country in the world - the US - and then it proved to be bogus, I don't believe all this 'despatches' from 'the horse's mouth'.
But I sure am open to logic.
Last edited by Ray; 06-14-2014 at 02:51 PM.
I'd rather use Occam's razor and give 90% probability that separatists got tanks from tank base in Artemovsk, which is situated right between Donetsk and Lugansk. Locals say this base is heavily guarded, but, you know, there is no problem which can't be solved by case full-o-cash in Ukraine.
Haeresis est maxima opera maleficarum non credere.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks