Results 1 to 20 of 4773

Thread: Ukraine: military (Aug '14 to mid-June '15) closed

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    "Turn left at Greenland." - Ringo Starr
    Posts
    965

    Default

    Outlaw -

    Poroshenko said today that negotiations is the way out of the crisis for Ukraine. Is he also living in an "altered state of reality"? He also proposed decentralizing some of Ukraine's powers as a concession to the opposition - does that make him a Russian puppet? 'Come on' outlaw.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    And the "confrontation" is forming---Russian troop withdrawals totally stopped today which meant in the first place it was all "show" in order to stop the proposed EU sanctions which did not work so back to the Russian Plan A "New Russia".
    Or it means Russian troop levels are at the minimum level perceived necessary by Moscow to maintain its gains while the political process moves forward.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    "Doublethink"--the ability to say two completely different thoughts and yet still believe both of them.
    'Doublethink' has nothing to do with saying anything at all. The term is 'doublethink' not 'doublespeak'. And saying contradictory statements is a regular practice in politics in all places and all levels. So - how is Russian political speak uniquely objectionable?
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  2. #2
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    Poroshenko said today that negotiations is the way out of the crisis for Ukraine. Is he also living in an "altered state of reality"? He also proposed decentralizing some of Ukraine's powers as a concession to the opposition - does that make him a Russian puppet? 'Come on' outlaw.



    Or it means Russian troop levels are at the minimum level perceived necessary by Moscow to maintain its gains while the political process moves forward.



    'Doublethink' has nothing to do with saying anything at all. The term is 'doublethink' not 'doublespeak'. And saying contradictory statements is a regular practice in politics in all places and all levels.




    So - how is Russian political speak uniquely objectionable?


    Because AP it is done in the realm of an "altered state of reality" which is based on their own propaganda which they have internalized and believe--actually if your fully understood fascism that is one of the characteristics of a "fascist" state. But again you did not read 1984 did you?

    An "altered state of reality" actually means one is not capable of fully recognizing true realty when it stares one in the face and that coupled with a very loose nuclear tongue right now is dangerous and we worry about IS in Syria and Iraq---second rate compared to a nuclear threat

    Let's see if the OFAC sanctions are correct then Russia got hit today that will in effect truly damage their economy and what is the response from Putin"

    Here is a great example again for you to think about.

    Putin's first response to new EU/US sanctions is to say: "the fewer government officials go abroad, the better"

    http://en.itar-tass.com/world/749322

    I will give a simple response---what the heck (WTH) is that from a leader of an alleged "superpower"?
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-12-2014 at 04:44 PM.

  3. #3
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    Poroshenko said today that negotiations is the way out of the crisis for Ukraine. Is he also living in an "altered state of reality"? He also proposed decentralizing some of Ukraine's powers as a concession to the opposition - does that make him a Russian puppet? 'Come on' outlaw.



    Or it means Russian troop levels are at the minimum level perceived necessary by Moscow to maintain its gains while the political process moves forward.



    'Doublethink' has nothing to do with saying anything at all. The term is 'doublethink' not 'doublespeak'. And saying contradictory statements is a regular practice in politics in all places and all levels. So - how is Russian political speak uniquely objectionable?
    AP this is a perfect example of your not understanding what you read and or write and that is not so good these days if you are a commenter.

    The definition of "doublespeak" is as follows:

    Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words. Doublespeak may take the form of euphemisms (e.g., "downsizing" for layoffs, "servicing the target" for bombing[1]), in which case it is primarily meant to make the truth sound more palatable. It may also refer to intentional ambiguity in language or to actual inversions of meaning (for example, naming a state of war "peace"). In such cases, doublespeak disguises the nature of the truth.

    NOTICE the way you infer it's use and or my mis-use is exactly what the definition states.

    BUT this is what I originally wrote and you absolutely paid no attention to it and if you had then you would have fully understood my use of the term "an altered state of reality" which is based on believing one's own propaganda.

    "Doublethink"---is nothing more or less that stating two completely different thoughts, statements and or sentences AND (this is what you missed AP) ACTUALLY believing both thoughts, statement, sentences.T

    That is exactly how in the RIA press release from the Russian FM concerning US aggression in Syria the FM is able to make two completely different concepts jell in a statement and fully believes both of them.

    I could if you want take literally statement for statement from either Putin and or his FM and show you exactly how "doublethink" works.

    Next time AP get at least the usage of terms correct. But then again you dismissed the Yale Professors article and 1984 as what "fiction"?

    Where "doublethink" is not being seen nor heard is when a Russian neo Nazi or as they themselves call themselves "nationalists" or "ultra nationalists" or outright "fascists" cuts loose then--- it is actually hard core polemic built on hatred and racism.

  4. #4
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    "Turn left at Greenland." - Ringo Starr
    Posts
    965

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Because AP it is done in the realm of an "altered state of reality" which is based on their own propaganda which they have internalized and believe--actually if your fully understood fascism that is one of the characteristics of a "fascist" state.
    Actually that is not a characteristic of a fascist state. Some might argue that's a characteristic of all states. And some others would argue that's what said (the 'propaganda') is less important than what's done.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    An "altered state of reality" actually means one is not capable of fully recognizing true realty
    Now you're getting into ontology. I would strongly recommend against staking out an ontological position for political purposes. As evidenced by your posts, this often produces arguments that prove too much and that are logically inconsistent.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    That is exactly how in the RIA press release from the Russian FM concerning US aggression in Syria the FM is able to make two completely different concepts jell in a statement and fully believes both of them.
    You cannot possibly know what the Russian FM "fully believes". And given the highly politicized context, it would be very difficult for you to establish what the Russian FM actually, personally believes. What he believes in his personal capacity and what he states in his professional capacity are totally separate and independent things. That political officials frequently contradict themselves is not surprising and it's also not a relevant critique of Russian policies since - guess what - this is not a uniquely Russian behavior. This is again a case of you playing fast and loose with definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    But then again you dismissed the Yale Professors article and 1984 as what "fiction"?
    When did I "dismiss" the article as "fiction"? Oh - that's right - you are making things up again. By the way - how about you read actual analysis of fascism rather than relying on your misinterpretations of fictional works that are critiques of communism?

    And your opinion on the Ukrainian president stating that negotiations are the only way to resolve the conflict, and his willingness to make concessions to the separatists? Still waiting on that.
    Last edited by AmericanPride; 09-12-2014 at 05:26 PM.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  5. #5
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    AP----

    Here is an excellent example of "doublethink"---Putin claims in a public statement there are no Russian military troops inside the Ukraine and in the same statement states the Ukraine is a junta led government and is not democratic.

    In the West we 1) laugh and say yes there are Russian troops in the Ukraine and 2) the Ukraine has a President via democratic elections.

    Putin though in his mind is totally correct in both his statements--remember I mentioned that Russia places a great deal of "faith" in legality. So therefore Russia soldiers who have signed a "contract" and or "vacation paperwork" would not be an "illegal or false statement" in Putin's mind and in fact is not a lie or a deliberate misstatement.

    To us we think in the end he is just using a "plausible deniability" ploy or we would argue once a soldier-even outside the uniform always a soldier.

    Secondly, in his mind he does not see the Maidan as a "legal" representation of the opinion of the Ukrainian people who elected another President (who even Putin stated kind of overreached in his stealing from the people who elected him in the first place) and who was then "overthrown" and in Putin speak via a "putsch/junta" and he "sees" the active participation of his worst nightmare the Ukrainian neo right (Right Sector) who he equates with Nazi's fighting in the Maidan and supporting the "putschists" then that is proof enough for his mind. See again just how the Russians hang on the concept of "legality"?

    We would on the other side state the former President was a thief and the "people spoke" and in their own Parliament they voted him out "legally" from a Ukrainian perspective.

    So in the end Putin makes two completely different statements in public and we "think" he is another world--but in his own mind he fully believes both statements to be in fact totally true.

    Now the kicker-many of Putin's statements and thoughts are in fact driven by propaganda and if I had the time and the efforts to do it one can find the supporting propaganda released via their TV or news agencies to match the statement.

    That is the core problem with a "fascist" state that is and was built on over 70 years of propaganda--it becomes mainstream and believed to be always the truth.

  6. #6
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    "Turn left at Greenland." - Ringo Starr
    Posts
    965

    Default

    Outlaw -

    In order for you to prove that Putin is exercising 'doublethink', you would have to establish that Putin personally simultaneously believes that (1) Russian soldiers are in Ukraine and (2) that Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine. It does not matter how 'soldier' is defined because that definition would have to be applicable in both cases for the statements to be contradictory. So - if we exclude 'soldiers' out of uniform for example, then you have to ask: does Putin simultaneously believe that Russian soldiers out of uniform are in Ukraine and that Russian soldiers out of uniform are not in Ukraine?

    This is where your argument becomes non-sensical. The presence of the soldiers, however defined, in Ukraine is what gives Russia the leverage it requires in securing its gains in the political process. The Russians know this - it's probably why they sent the soldiers in the first place... That they're making deceptive comments about it is not an indicator of doublethink. It's an indicator that the Russians are political.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    So in the end Putin makes two completely different statements in public and we "think" he is another world--but in his own mind he fully believes both statements to be in fact totally true.
    Does he in fact "in his own mind" fully believe both statements? Or are you assuming this based upon your specific interpretation(s) of Russian behavior?

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Now the kicker-many of Putin's statements and thoughts are in fact driven by propaganda and if I had the time and the efforts to do it one can find the supporting propaganda released via their TV or news agencies to match the statement.
    That there is a relationship between a public official's comments and that public official's government's media organs comments is not a surprise nor an indicator of anything beyond an organized information strategy.

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    That is the core problem with a "fascist" state that is and was built on over 70 years of propaganda--it becomes mainstream and believed to be always the truth.
    That's the problem with mass media in general.

    So - once again - Ukrainian President. His pursuit of negotiations and compromise. Your thoughts? Go.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  7. #7
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Outlaw -

    In order for you to prove that Putin is exercising 'doublethink', you would have to establish that Putin personally simultaneously believes that (1) Russian soldiers are in Ukraine and (2) that Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine. It does not matter how 'soldier' is defined because that definition would have to be applicable in both cases for the statements to be contradictory. So - if we exclude 'soldiers' out of uniform for example, then you have to ask: does Putin simultaneously believe that Russian soldiers out of uniform are in Ukraine and that Russian soldiers out of uniform are not in Ukraine?

    This is where your argument becomes non-sensical. The presence of the soldiers, however defined, in Ukraine is what gives Russia the leverage it requires in securing its gains in the political process. The Russians know this - it's probably why they sent the soldiers in the first place... That they're making deceptive comments about it is not an indicator of doublethink. It's an indicator that the Russians are political.



    Does he in fact "in his own mind" fully believe both statements? Or are you assuming this based upon your specific interpretation(s) of Russian behavior?



    That there is a relationship between a public official's comments and that public official's government's media organs comments is not a surprise nor an indicator of anything beyond an organized information strategy.



    That's the problem with mass media in general.

    So - once again - Ukrainian President. His pursuit of negotiations and compromise. Your thoughts? Go.
    Here is again your core problem---here is the 75th shoe that dropped that Russian troops are physically inside the Ukraine BTR 80 with the Russian military blue peacekeepers emblem on the front of the armored vehicle.

    https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/s...56067634249728

    See AP--this simple photo in fact proves exactly what you claim cannot be .

    Putin in fact states there are no troops by his "legal" definition of what a Russian soldier is and when confronted with this photo he would state where is the Russia uniformed soldier?--you can spin all day long how you like it to be.

    The President---ah the President--all he is trying to do is to slow down Putin to give time for the Ukrainian Army to reposition itself and he fully understands he has lost the south east as he knows NATO will not come in at all---the most he is hoping for is new anti air and anti tank weapons as a chance to freeze the Russian moves at the borders of "New Russia".

    The UA has been fighting rather well but have been run over by the Russian heavy tanks and BM27/30s because they have no anti tank abilities- and really heavy artillery--there is some fear that Russia is positioning itself for airstrikes thus the need for anti air weapons as well.

    In some aspects there is some talk about ditching the entire Donbas and allowing Russia to pick up the rebuilding cost but that would cut the western Ukraine from any Black Sea port thus the decision to stand and fight at Mariupol and Odessa which is where the UA has heavily repositioned itself towards.

    But right now the President cannot sell the idea of ditching the Donbas to western Ukraine due to their heavy fighting and current loses---maybe at some point down the road but not now.

    There is also serious concern that Russia is making their move in the coming few days as the EU Assoc is to be signed on 16 Sept and goes into effect on 1 Nov and Putin has to make his moves right before that if he is going to stop the Ukraine from going over to the EU which is the supposed reason at all for his actions in the Crimea and Ukraine.--meaning his perceived anger at EU/NATO moves on the Ukraine.
    Last edited by OUTLAW 09; 09-12-2014 at 07:04 PM.

  8. #8
    Council Member AmericanPride's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    "Turn left at Greenland." - Ringo Starr
    Posts
    965

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by outlaw
    Here is again your core problem---here is the 75th shoe that dropped that Russian troops are physically inside the Ukraine BTR 80 with the Russian military blue peacekeepers emblem on the front of the armored vehicle.

    https://twitter.com/MiddleEast_BRK/s...56067634249728

    See AP--this simple photo in fact proves exactly what you claim cannot be .
    Please quote me where I stated Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine.
    When I am weaker than you, I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you, I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles. - Louis Veuillot

  9. #9
    Council Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    35,749

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanPride View Post
    Please quote me where I stated Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine.
    AP--one of the better explanations of Russian goals in the Ukraine and fully explained by one that should know.



    Print Friendly





    Staunton, September 12 – Konstantin Zatulin, the director of the Russian Institute for CIS Countries, has bluntly described Moscow’s war aims in Ukraine as directed toward the establishment of complete control over Ukraine’s foreign and domestic policies and a privileged position in that country for the Russian language and the Moscow Patriarchate.

    Speaking in Sevastopol in Russian-occupied Crimea earlier this week, Zatulin said that Moscow’s policy toward Ukraine rests on three “main principles,” all of which taken together would reduce to almost nothing Ukraine’s ability to act in any way independently from what the Russian Federation wants.

    First of all, the Moscow politician said, “Ukraine must become a federative state.” That is because “the eastern subjects” of such a federation “where people speak Russian and have their own relationship to history will always be a guarantee for Russia that Ukraine will not be able to adopt anti-Russian positions.”

    Moreover, he continued, “the federalization of Ukraine will give Moscow a voice in the internal affairs [of Ukraine] via [its influence in these] eastern regions.”

    Second, Zatulin continued, Russian must become a state language in Ukraine not only because of the presence of Russian speakers in that country but because “it is impossible to be an anti-Russian state with Russian as a state language.”

    And third, he added, Moscow will not allow a split in the Russian Orthodox Church between Ukrainians and Russians because “the very fact that people go to one church plays an enormous role and will not allow for bloodletting.”

    According to Zatulin, “the most immediate tasks” of the Russian authorities are not to allow the formation of any alliance in Ukraine directed against Moscow. Whether the West or Ukraine likes it or not, “Crimea is de facto in Russia,” and Moscow must ensure that “Ukraine not be consolidated on an anti-Russian basis.”

    Among other things, the Moscow figure said, this means that Ukraine cannot become a member of the Western alliance. “Moscow is in a position to defend its interests, and ‘the expansion of NATO is impossible without Russia’s permission.” To any suggestions in that regard, “we say no.”

    In other comments, Zatulin expressed regret that the Minsk accords did not give official recognition to the Donetsk and Lugansk “people’s republics,” but he suggested that this mistake could and would be corrected in the future.

Similar Threads

  1. Mainly terrorism in Indonesia: catch all
    By SDSchippert in forum Asia-Pacific
    Replies: 103
    Last Post: 01-25-2019, 08:10 PM
  2. Vietnam collection (lessons plus)
    By SWJED in forum Training & Education
    Replies: 140
    Last Post: 06-27-2014, 04:40 AM
  3. Military Affairs Course Syllabus
    By Jesse9252 in forum RFIs & Members' Projects
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 09-22-2006, 08:54 PM
  4. Military Transformed -- Better Gear, New Goals
    By SWJED in forum Equipment & Capabilities
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-08-2006, 12:28 PM
  5. Conference on Professional Military Education
    By SWJED in forum Training & Education
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-08-2006, 10:58 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •