Syria in 2016: an exchange on what to do

[OUTLAW 09]

Nice to see Pallywood at work.



Nope.



They are not flying CAS for ISIS. Russia is killing both ISIS and JAN/FSA/IF. Dropping bombs on one side or the other when they are fighting each other is totally above board. The trash taking itself out.



And Russia is clubbing all the anti-Assad groups with cluster bombs and 1000lb bombs, interesting division of labor. Nothing saying in the law saying that you have to use guided weapons. Rather cheaper from an accounting standpoint to level the building where terrorists are meeting with 1000lb bombs and ballistic missiles than to be all that worried over the fate of the person making coffee for them.



And the SOHR, another anti-regime source, puts it at 965 ISIS and 1233 non-ISIS terrorists, even if you assume all the alleged civilians were with JAN/IF/FSA/whoever that's still not 97%. It does sound better I guess if one is crying over poor-AQ to say Russia is picking on them and the Muslim Brotherhood.



Different equipment, different doctrine on usage of heavy weapons in urban areas and different public back home. Just so happens in this case the terrorists are dealing with a nation which is prepared to flatten houses they are meeting in, regardless of the risk to people serving dinner.



The US has expressed alarm.

Thankfully we as a nation are not required to do more, nor do the voters wish to ride to the aid of a band heavily made up of the same types of terrorists we lost civil liberties over. Wasn't public support when Assad allegedly used chemical weapons and sure isn't now with a Russian air group blasting terrorists.



Nope. Our leadership would be fine legally if they star around eating ice cream and watched the VKS airstrikes and made explosion noises while watching the impact.



It's a civil war, where one side holds up among the civilian population and the other doesn't mind the bad press in getting at the rebels and their infrastructure, then throw in one-off massacres by both sides and this is not a genocide by any stretch. This isn't Rwanda or Nazi Germany. The term genocide gets so wildly overused it runs the risk of losing any meaning.



I'll keep my American view on stuff thank you. You should probably come back and talk to some actual Americans, you are out of step with the public on everything from supporting AQ to wanting America to put Islamists into power. As I said, enjoy being on the losing side.



JAN is in that grouping.



They are part of AQ. That's quite enough. Outed yourself for supporting a group which murdered three-thousand Americans.

It's a shame and a disservice to the victims that we are not blasting those "crazy JAN kids" and their allies to bits.



Thanks but no thanks.



- explains a lot.



In the future tell the customs people or airplane passengers how great of guys JAN are. Bottom line it's past a fringe position.

Years of basically one-sided propaganda, which is still ongoing, about how great of guys these terrorist are (even the idiotic cat story) and covering up for their AQ links, and still the public doesn't want to help the take power or even take in economic migrants. Really a remarkable case of the intended beneficiary of the propaganda being so rotten that AJ and the MSM couldn't cover it from the public.

mwe12.....you and 9/11...blinds you...nothing but cut and paste but true knowledge of the world around you is distinctly missing......reflects you never have physically participated in the so called war on terror......and or in the two wars that never needed to be fought that cost you and me 5T USDs and over 7K KIAs and ten of thousands wounded.

cut and paste, cut and paste.....nothing more nothing less.....waste of time to continue.

again trolling nothing else outside of platitudes.....

especially the following which actually reflects your true narrative.......

I'll keep my American view on stuff thank you. You should probably come back and talk to some actual Americans, you are out of step with the public on everything from supporting AQ to wanting America to put Islamists into power. As I said, enjoy being on the losing side.

some actual Americans.....when you have fought for the US in three of the last four wars and trained 44 BCT staffs many of them going to AFG the fourth war and when you have served the IC in multiple different places of this world in the name of the US and when you have been wounded defending the US...then my friend you can talk about who and or is not "American"

platitudes do not replace knowledge and experience and you are missing both.

that you do not see that is interesting to say the least.

last comment here as it is a waste of my time......as you absolutely know nothing of the ME......

[OUTLAW 09]

mwe12...here is your largest deficit in this conversation and thus you are simply trolling.

When you can in detail explain to me in naturally more than one sentence what is a secular Muslim, what is a Salafist, and more importantly what is a Takfirist...and more importantly where do they touch each other and how do they cross over each other...BTW using theKoran and then what is their respective views on the Sunni form of government for each of them.

Then taking that approach apply it to the current Syrian Sunni environment ...especially the JaN side of the house which yesterday was approached by the opposition and suggested they abandon AQ.

Then and only then can you actually get into a conversation...anything else is platitudes and trolling....

Here is your second problem...you were born way past the era of this statement...."one mans' terrorist is another man's freedom fighter......" THEN apply that to the three Islamic religious directions.

Once you work your way through that then we can turn to Shiaism and their "Islamic Revolutionary" theology.

BUT more important is the reading of say at least three critical studies on Syria and the geo political importance for the entire ME.

[OUTLAW 09]

mwe12...think about this statement as it pertains to your comments.....

"Religious radicals come in all shapes, colors and sizes these days and they all "claim God"........."

I just heard Ted Cruz's first words on his Iowa caucus win: "To God goes the glory."
That's Republican mwe12 for "Allahu Akbar!"

BTW if you had been paying attention ......all three of the great religions build on each other and take from each other......so are Ted Cruz Republicans "closet Islamists".....maybe......

[mwe12]

some actual Americans.....when you have fought for the US in three of the last four wars and trained 44 BCT staffs many of them going to AFG the fourth war and when you have served the IC in multiple different places of this world in the name of the US and when you have been wounded defending the US...then my friend you can talk about who and or is not "American"

None of that changes the fact that JAN is a part of AQ. Sorry bro whatever life experience you claim to have doesn't transform AQ and their allies into a bunch of good guys. Serious you spend hours a day on the internet railing about how that coward Obama needs to save a bunch of terrorists from evil Putin.

When you support JAN as being a bunch of sometimes crazy kids, congratulations you are on the permanent fringe. Cutting past all the high minded rants about civilians; you think JAN are a bunch of swell guys that America needs to help out.

mwe12.....you and 9/11...blinds you...nothing but cut and paste but true knowledge of the world around you is distinctly missing......reflects you never have physically participated in the so called war on terror......and or in the two wars that never needed to be fought that cost you and me 5T USDs and over 7K KIAs and ten of thousands wounded.

A deflection for the fact that you support JAN and other Islamist terrorist groups.

Well I guess if Pakistan can have "good" and "bad" Taliban you can have "good" and "not as good" members of AQ.

When you can in detail explain to me in naturally more than one sentence what is a secular Muslim, what is a Salafist, and more importantly what is a Takfirist...and more importantly where do they touch each other and how do they cross over each other...BTW using theKoran and then what is their respective views on the Sunni form of government for each of them.

On my way to the office please just post your stock explanation with randomly capitalized and bolded words explaining why the MB are really a bunch of great guys.

I just heard Ted Cruz's first words on his Iowa caucus win: "To God goes the glory."

And when he crashes airplanes into buildings and slits the throats of people of different religions solely because of their faith then you might start to explain to me that he is a great guy.

Then taking that approach apply it to the current Syrian Sunni environment ...especially the JaN side of the house which yesterday was approached by the opposition and suggested they abandon AQ.

They joined AQ and have stayed in it. An organization which murdered thousands of Americans one morning. They are brigaded with other the Islamists. That is quite enough.

No conspiracy of Russian agents here, your cause is just rotten. There is no genocide, Putin kills more terrorists than civilians, nothing in the law says Putin can't keep killing non-ISIS terrorists, the American people don't like the Syrian rebels, and you my friend cannot try to appeal to some expert status to justify saying America needs to ride to the rescue of AQ.

Putin has thankfully saved us from the "experts" who have failed us for generations by putting dumping his own nation into this quagmire.

[Windows97]

When you can in detail explain to me in naturally more than one sentence what is a secular Muslim, what is a Salafist, and more importantly what is a Takfirist...and more importantly where do they touch each other and how do they cross over each other...BTW using theKoran and then what is their respective views on the Sunni form of government for each of them.

Then taking that approach apply it to the current Syrian Sunni environment ...especially the JaN side of the house which yesterday was approached by the opposition and suggested they abandon AQ.

So if the Nazis turned around and said "hey, you know what, the SS is a different organisation! Nothing to do with us!" You would accept their argument? What unites all the organisations you mention? Hair splitting over the minor tactical or political strands of their respective legitimating ideologies ignores the common wellspring.

Here is your second problem...you were born way past the era of this statement...."one mans' terrorist is another man's freedom fighter......" THEN apply that to the three Islamic religious directions.

What do you mean here? What do you mean by the three Islamic directions?

Once you work your way through that then we can turn to Shiaism and their "Islamic Revolutionary" theology..

Islam as a whole is best described as a revolutionary theology. Ithna ashari shia'ism of the official Iranian variety is the only one that adheres to a syncretistic fusion of third world liberation theology+marxism and traditional Shi'a narrative themes (thanks largely to Talk Shariati and Jala Ali-Ahmad). Ithna ashari Shi'a in Iraq (especially Najaf) do not traditionally follow the official discourse of Qom (I.e., the doctrine of Velayat-e-faqih, which many outside Iran actually consider a dangerous innovation) unless it is politically expedient. The other branch's of shi'ism such as the zaydi wouldn't even call themselves associates of the ithna ashari. So, again what the hell are you talking about?

When you stick to fact instead of hashtag ramblings you make sense. When you start ranting it looks like you've drunk the koolaid bub. Maybe try decaffeinated? Or camomile tea.

[OUTLAW 09]

mwindows97 suddenly appears after registering in 2015 and 4 posts.....after mihond and mwe12 we seem to have three trolls in the SWJ database, anticipated actually more.

windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

[OUTLAW 09]

mwindows97 suddenly appears after registering in 2015 and 4 posts.....after mihond and mwe12 we seem to have three trolls in the SWJ database, anticipated actually more.

windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

windows97 you seem to as did mwe12 and mirhond...you seem to ignore direct questions another indicator of a troll.

[davidbfpo]

SWC does not tolerate "trolls" or "trollers" when they break our RoE. We are a reasonably broad mix of interests and views, which is one reason why so many people and members come here.

In the recent past I have acted to edit and remove content that is, simply, bad and wrong. Those actions have been accompanied by the use of polite requests via PM and if necessary use of official sanctions.

Recent posts here do not address the thread's purpose IMHO; it is 'Syria in 2016: an exchange on what to do'.

[mwe12]

To the topic at hand.

We need to let Putin/Assad finish off these groups. They have a bit of momentum now. It is not a pretty campaign but wiping out these groups and preventing them having a nation to play Taliban 2.0 makes us safer than vainly hoping some secular democratic state appears inspite of the Turks, Qataris, KSA, and the IF/AQ. I hope this is where Obama is moving towards, with the terrorists blaming America for their loss, generally whining, and claiming we held up supplies.

We should provide no more TOWs, political support, or funding, and pressure the GCC to prevent manpads and heavy weapons. The anti Assad alliance is made up of people many of who share the same radical beliefs as AQ, and many those are members. The argument that we need to put terrorists in power or Sunnis will get more radical is silly. Our supposed allies have been supporting the local AQ chapter for sometime now, the group which killed three thousand Americans.

The rebels wanted nothing to do with the talks and used their rout to back out after creating preconditions they didn't have the leverage to demand.

If Putin is prepared to put cash on a barrel to cluster bomb terrorist groups than good, let him and Iran bleed money and lives. There is no public support here to rescue a bunch of terrorists that we have spent billions fighting ourselves and set up a massive and expensive bureaucracy to handle. They fight should to shoulder, suicide vest to TOW with AQ. If the media did a better job reporting, people would be horrified and who we partner with and of course why aren't we also bombing those same AQ fighters who collapsed under the Assadist assault. Despite all the bandwidth in oped pages and blogs used to push for war, the bald faced lies from the terrorists western supporters; still it's unpopular and thanks to Russia jumping in highly improbable.

Thankfully Obama has avoided getting us deeper in this mess. Shamefully we are even this involved.

Stripped away of hash tags about genocide, saying Russia is providing cas for ISIS, saying AQ are good guys, whining about Obama not stopping Russia; it's a coalition made up of Islamists and the terrorist exporting GCC/Turkey trying to put terrorists in charge and trying to drag America by the nose to make it all possible.

No trolling here, just disgusted by our support for terrorists, and their allies who we are expected to put into power and with the western cheerleaders calling for us to support these clowns and seemingly fight Russia.

Sent via cell phone.

[davidbfpo]

mwe12,

Thank you for this American viewpoint.

Syria is sadly a mess and in effect could become a far larger Palestine-in-exile area, I don't think the title nation-state would apply. As we know the Palestinian people have a had a "raw deal" since 1947 from the outside world and their own leadership. Plus their recourse to terrorism was seen by many as a "first", especially long ago with passenger plane hijacking.

Civil wars are never easy to understand, let alone take action over. Except for those who feel very strongly they must do something, a coalition that is frankly horrible - to those Syrian people who remain in their country.

The recent migration out of the region to Western Europe, which is not all Syrian, is IMHO unlikely to reduce, let alone stop. As Jordan and Lebanon this week have stated - in BBC reports - they cannot absorb let alone properly cater for the influx. Which of course ignores how many Palestinians are resident, a good number still resident in "camps" which look like concrete suburbs.

ISIS is reportedly aghast at the move of thousands if not millions of fellow Muslims (excluding Shia) to Western Europe; hardly a message they can ignore or explain to those who live under their rule.

As for the o-so rich Gulf Arabs who currently appear very reluctant to provide humanitarian aid, let alone refuge - are far happier to donate money and weapons to make Syria worse.

I do wonder how the "ordinary (Arab) in the street" thinks. Who do they blame for the tragedy that is clearly happening?

[Windows97]

1. windows97..now that you have impressed me with you somewhat not so correct fro text book copied shia comments...try finally answering the comment what is the difference between secular, salafst and takfiri Sunni's...

2. and when you finish that explain to us the shia revolutionary islam of 1979 and the green crescent of 1979.

3. Then let's discuss the recent 1979 revival of shiaism......meaning their definition of government vs the sunni definition of government

4. btw windows97 you also cut and past as does mwe12 so probably the same commenter just two different logons.......

... clarification of your statements is hardly trolling. It is good practice when discussing any half serious topic. If I don't know what you are talking about I cannot respond and whatever discourse we may conduct will be as mere ships passing in the night.

1. I have no idea what a secular Sunni is. Probably the same thing as a secular Jew or a secular Hindu. In other words an oxymoron. Salafis and takfiris are not mutually exclusive ontological categories or properties adhering to a group. A salafi can and often will declare that an opponent is a hypocrite or an apostate. The Muslim making that charge is thus a takfiri. After the first Islamic civil war under abu Bakr he often declared the tribe who turned their backs on him as apostates and thus he engaged in takfir. The same things occurred during the I'll fated tenure of Ali...hence Shiaism and the now extinct kharjirites. A Muslim making the charge of apostasy need not be a salfist, he or she could just be an ordinary Joe/Mohammed. But by doing so they are being takfiris. So, In sorry, but I don't really understand your point.

2. What exactly irks you about the Shi'a revolutionary moment in 1979 (which was, in fact, localised to Iran). The ousting of Pahlavi was accomplished by a rainbow group of disparate political forces. Khomeini lead one religious faction (of which he became its leader in exile and provided it with his legitimating ideology of velayat e faqih). The other was the traditionalist, quietist (non political) faction led by Ayatollah Shariatmadari who later died under suspicious circumstances IIRC. The only places where the Shi'a revolted were in Saudi Arabia and had virtually bugger all to do with Iran despite Saudi Arabia's attempt to paint it that way. Only Hizbollah, an Iranian proxy, follows the ideology of velyat e faqih. The idea of a Shi'a uprising is a general term that is inexact and explains nothing but may be useful polemically depending on your position visavis the Shi'a.

3. Extending this argument, what do you mean the Sunni doctrine of government vs the Shi'a doctrine of government? The so called Shi'a "theory" of government doesn't actually exist. There is a ithna ashari ideology of government typified and systemised by Khomeini's concept of velayat e faqih but if you mentioned it in Najaf they laugh you out of town. The Sunni believe in a limited form of elected dictatorship the only qualification being piety. Monarchs are tolerated (in an analogy of Kant's prescription against revolting against tyrants to preserve order and prevent anarchy) so long as they "enjoin the good and prohibit evil". For the Shi'a only the descendants of Ali are the lawful heirs to earthly government and in their absence they should either accept the rule of the jurisprudent (the regime position in Iran) or, in terms of the more traditionalist position (quietism) support anyone who ensures that Islamic law is upheld (similar to the sunni position with the proviso that clerical power is not impinged upon- he of the clerics original complaints against the Shah in 79). As for the Shi'a revival, it can actually be traced back to the mid sixties when Marxism-socialism was seen as an alien ideology by many people including the previously mentioned Ali Shariati especially in his book Red Shiism and jalal ali Ahmed's collected works. Many in the clergy saw a common cause with revolutionary groups. But then it gets complicated. Non Iranian regime Ithna Ashari Shi'a are awaiting the return of the twelfth occulted Imam in whom true legitimate wilaya rests. Zaydi Shi'a have Imams that fuse the concept of (weak) consent inherent in sunnism with that of divine bloodlines of the ithna ashari. But that's by the by...

4. I don't know why you feel the need to continually spout your professional qualifications as some " argument from authority". That authority being yourself your pronouncement thereby become inviolable. Is it that you don't like being told your are wrong? Or confused? Or unintelligible? Perhps your pervasive sense of inferiority compells you to continually state that you are more qualified experientially on this forum than anyone els. But that smacks of argument from authority. That authority being yourself. I have no need to cut and paste anything. Nor sir am I not a troll. Though you may well be. Humility is, though, a virtue you might want to cultivate.

Regards, W97

[OUTLAW 09]

w97...again you do not seem to fully understand Iranian "Revolutionary Islam" driven really first by Khomeini and now by Khamenei.....AND it was not just limited to Iran as you stated. BTW the rumored replacement for Khamenei is considered by many to be a hardcore Khomeini V5 and that means a brutally conservative religious fanatic....TIED to "Revolutionary Islam".

If you had fully understood the "principles of government" espoused by Shia vs Sunni government concepts then you would have noticed the major shift started by Khomeini and company with the title of Supreme Leader signifying that shift.

If you had fully understood the Khomeini principle espoused under the term "Green Crescent" then you would have fully understood exactly why the KSA has been pushing back since 1978 against Iranian Shi'ism.

The "dislike" between Iran and KSA actually dates from 1978 a full year before Khomeini took power via a religious coup and then killed off any of those students and leftists that actually threw out the Shah...if you had fully understood the Shah overthrow.

If you had understood that period then you know that it was the KSA that warned both the CIA and the US political leadership that Khomeini's 5 cent audio tapes of his Friday's Prayers coming out of Paris was far more of a threat than anyone anticipated including the Shah's secret police the CIA trained SAVAK.

Back to the Green Crescent...which is the arch created by a line running from AFG through Iran, Iraq, Syria and landing in Lebanon and if you had understood the Lebanese civil war then you would have seen the 3000 "volunteer RGs" marching into Baalbek Valley with their Green flags waving to "support their brothers" then they did nothing but waited and today we have Hezbollah which if you fully understand them.....they are a terrorist grouping under US definitions.

BTW...trace the "Green Crescent countries" and then layer them over the "old Silk Road" you might be surprised that it is an identical match...AND then ask yourself WHY the sudden interest by the Chinese in the rebuilding of this "Silk Road" they have been talking about and which the Ukraine just sent a train over to test all the way to Peking AVOIDING crossing any territory called Russia so now the "old Silk Road" has a ME route and now a central eastern European branch. An interesting recreation of the old 1500/1600s trading routes.

But again you knew all of this...thus the KSA pushback against Iran is to isolate this "Green Crescent" as it surrounds KSA and is viewed by KSA as a direct threat to them.

THEN you would have fully understood the tie in to the use of Iranian of IRGC/QUD forces, Hezbollah units from Lebanon and Iraq, 35 Iraqi Shia militias AND naturally all those AFG recruited Shia mercenaries ALL of whom are now in Syrian and many of them dying in Aleppo over the last few days as cannon fodder making sure the land corridor to Hezbollah is maintained and expanded in the name of "Revolutionary Islam" and the Green Crescent.

So while you and mwe12 beat up on the "Sunni's" you conveniently forgot the "Shia" which have far more "US blood on their hands" as does IS..which has killed random US citizens/military personnel.....remember it was not IS that attacked on 9/11 and remember even AQ has disowned them.

THEN if you had know all of the above then you can fully understand the Obama "selling" of the "Iran Deal" to Congress and you as a way to "moderate" Iran...but have you seen any "Iranian moderation" in Syria?

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian
and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

If you had understood the concept of "radicalization steps of a civil society" then you would have seen this truck speeding directly at you...but Obama and Kerry appeared to not see the oncoming disaster OR what I suspect is closer to the truth...they do not care as he is out of office in less than 12 months.

Now disprove that......

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Wars against AQ by the US since 2003 has actually increased the "influence and power of IS"...not the reverse.

So what is your solution...like mwe12 "just kill them all"......."ain't working" I am afraid.....

[OUTLAW 09]

w97...again you do not seem to fully understand Iranian "Revolutionary Islam" driven really first by Khomeini and now by Khamenei.....AND it was not just limited to Iran as you stated. BTW the rumored replacement for Khamenei is considered by many to be a hardcore Khomeini V5 and that means a brutally conservative religious fanatic....TIED to "Revolutionary Islam".

If you had fully understood the "principles of government" espoused by Shia vs Sunni government concepts then you would have noticed the major shift started by Khomeini and company with the title of Supreme Leader signifying that shift.

If you had fully understood the Khomeini principle espoused under the term "Green Crescent" then you would have fully understood exactly why the KSA has been pushing back since 1978 against Iranian Shi'ism.

The "dislike" between Iran and KSA actually dates from 1978 a full year before Khomeini took power via a religious coup and then killed off any of those students and leftists that actually threw out the Shah...if you had fully understood the Shah overthrow.

If you had understood that period then you know that it was the KSA that warned both the CIA and the US political leadership that Khomeini's 5 cent audio tapes of his Friday's Prayers coming out of Paris was far more of a threat than anyone anticipated including the Shah's secret police the CIA trained SAVAK.

Back to the Green Crescent...which is the arch created by a line running from AFG through Iran, Iraq, Syria and landing in Lebanon and if you had understood the Lebanese civil war then you would have seen the 3000 "volunteer RGs" marching into Baalbek Valley with their Green flags waving to "support their brothers" then they did nothing but waited and today we have Hezbollah which if you fully understand them.....they are a terrorist grouping under US definitions.

BTW...trace the "Green Crescent countries" and then layer them over the "old Silk Road" you might be surprised that it is an identical match...AND then ask yourself WHY the sudden interest by the Chinese in the rebuilding of this "Silk Road" they have been talking about and which the Ukraine just sent a train over to test all the way to Peking AVOIDING crossing any territory called Russia so now the "old Silk Road" has a ME route and now a central eastern European branch. An interesting recreation of the old 1500/1600s trading routes.

But again you knew all of this...thus the KSA pushback against Iran is to isolate this "Green Crescent" as it surrounds KSA and is viewed by KSA as a direct threat to them.

THEN you would have fully understood the tie in to the use of Iranian of IRGC/QUD forces, Hezbollah units from Lebanon and Iraq, 35 Iraqi Shia militias AND naturally all those AFG recruited Shia mercenaries ALL of whom are now in Syrian and many of them dying in Aleppo over the last few days as cannon fodder making sure the land corridor to Hezbollah is maintained and expanded in the name of "Revolutionary Islam" and the Green Crescent.

So while you and mwe12 beat up on the "Sunni's" you conveniently forgot the "Shia" which have far more "US blood on their hands" as does IS..which has killed random US citizens/military personnel.....remember it was not IS that attacked on 9/11 and remember even AQ has disowned them.

THEN if you had know all of the above then you can fully understand the Obama "selling" of the "Iran Deal" to Congress and you as a way to "moderate" Iran...but have you seen any "Iranian moderation" in Syria?

Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian
and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

If you had understood the concept of "radicalization steps of a civil society" then you would have seen this truck speeding directly at you...but Obama and Kerry appeared to not see the oncoming disaster OR what I suspect is closer to the truth...they do not care as he is out of office in less than 12 months.

Now disprove that......

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Wars against AQ by the US since 2003 has actually increased the "influence and power of IS"...not the reverse.

So what is your solution...like mwe12 "just kill them all"......."ain't working" I am afraid.....

w97/mwe12...will give you a provocative question for both to answer...

Is in fact the Obama ME strategy and I hate using the term strategy because there is none THE exact same thing that Putin's is for Syria.? Meaning leaving Assad in power and basically not damaging/destroying Islamic State.

AND that this attempt by the US to copy Putin's FP has badly damaged US FP/standing in Europe and the ME?

Rebels say the U.S. cut their weapons pre-Geneva while Assad/Russia ramped up Aleppo attacks
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory …
pic.twitter.com/LmC67qCzcX

I could actually link you to the press conference where Kerry stated publicly that "he had not threatened the HNC...AND they must have misinterpreted him"....BUT I know since you are following Syria you already know this.

Another provocative comment....Kerry lies just about as often as does his Russian FM counterpart Lavrov....true or false....?

[Windows97]

...how can anyone have a reasoned debate with someone who cherry picks (note you've thrown a lot of information I have already stated back at me in accusation that I have limited it!), dissimulates, and argues from petition principii. There was a reason I left the nut house that the SWC has become a few years ago. So, I shall follow the advice of a Shi'a Imam. All the best bub, I hope you get back on your meds before you run for president.

[mwe12]

I do wonder how the "ordinary (Arab) in the street" thinks. Who do they blame for the tragedy that is clearly happening?

America will take the blame for not showing up and invading. Seeing as people on this forum are already blaming the US for it.

As for the o-so rich Gulf Arabs who currently appear very reluctant to provide humanitarian aid, let alone refuge - are far happier to donate money and weapons to make Syria worse.

What I find insane about this situation is that our "allies" are the ones pushing for the same radicals who we set up the huge surveillance state to protect ourselves from. We are deluged daily with bizarre news stories that somehow we are "letting" these horrible states down by not bombing Assad ourselves to put in guys we consider to be terrorists.

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Again the pointed question to you and mwe12...when did JaN ever and I mean the last say 100 years...when did JaN issue a threat against the US and then attack the US and or US citizens....actually never.

At the moment they are busy getting bombed. JAN is part of AQ, you may cheerlead for them all you wish but at the end of the day they are part of the organization that murdered three thousand Americans in a single day (ignoring those who have died from various aliments caused by exposure) and are the cause of this whole global war on terrorism. And JAN is a part of the rebel alliance and fights alongside other bands of merry terrorists.

That you like them so much is a bit disturbing, but it does not change the fact they are terrorists and that they are part of AQ and each one Russia kills is a good thing.

Rebels say the U.S. cut their weapons pre-Geneva while Assad/Russia ramped up Aleppo attacks

Great and hopefully we keep the tap closed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory

Rebel fighters sounded desperate as they described enduring more than 200 airstrikes in the past 24 hours alone. Commanders from a range of rebel groups, from moderates to the al-Qaeda-affiliated Jabhat al-Nusra, issued urgent appeals for reinforcements from other parts of the country.

Perfect chance to kill some AQ...

And since you know all of the above ...the offensive unleashed by Putin will now radicalize the FSA which is actually Syrian

Guys who fight side by side with terrorists might drop the facade? Then I assume it is time to preemptively drone strike them ourselves; seeing as you say beneath every FSA member is a JAN/IS/IF member ready to pop out.

I guess the only good anti-Assad terrorist is a dead one.

and Syrian supported and moderate even further driving them closer to JaN and IS and the flow of weapons from now Turkey and KSA will increase to include MANPADs....WHY because the Obama WH and Kerry simply have no strategy for the ME or for that fact anywhere else and these two countries under pressure from the US have held them back...but since the utter Geneva failure of Kerry and now due to the lack of total US creditability to fulfill anything they talk about these weapons will now flow.

So the poor terrorist exporting states will have to give heavier weapons to terrorists because evil Obama hasn't gotten them control of Damascus, poor bastards.

Shame we won't cruise missile the everyone's favorite slave labor site for funneling weapons and money to terrorists.

BTW....IS has lost 25% of their territory taken in 2014, and had 25K killed by US air strikes but overall they have solidified their holdings in Syria and Iraq and have actually been increasing their manpower and their wealth built initially on oil has taken a hit they are still the wealthiest jihadi group in the world AND Russia is not destroying them at all in Syria....think about that for a moment. ALSO think about their ability "to project Islamic power" much as Putin is doing now in Syria...."power projection" was largely reserved for nation states not non state actors.....

Be well served to stand back and allow the SAA and their militias, after they are through with the other terrorists, to march on IS (while Iraq and its militias push from the other direction) and snuff/barrel bomb them out. The Assad/Putin/IRGC/Iraq express are the only realistic hope to finish off ISIS on the ground.

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Why on earth do you respond to your own posts BTW?

[OUTLAW 09]

America will take the blame for not showing up and invading. Seeing as people on this forum are already blaming the US for it.



What I find insane about this situation is that our "allies" are the ones pushing for the same radicals who we set up the huge surveillance state to protect ourselves from. We are deluged daily with bizarre news stories that somehow we are "letting" these horrible states down by not bombing Assad ourselves to put in guys we consider to be terrorists.

=======


At the moment they are busy getting bombed. JAN is part of AQ, you may cheerlead for them all you wish but at the end of the day they are part of the organization that murdered three thousand Americans in a single day (ignoring those who have died from various aliments caused by exposure) and are the cause of this whole global war on terrorism. And JAN is a part of the rebel alliance and fights alongside other bands of merry terrorists.

That you like them so much is a bit disturbing, but it does not change the fact they are terrorists and that they are part of AQ and each one Russia kills is a good thing.



Great and hopefully we keep the tap closed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...mepage%2Fstory


Perfect chance to kill some AQ...



Guys who fight side by side with terrorists might drop the facade? Then I assume it is time to preemptively drone strike them ourselves; seeing as you say beneath every FSA member is a JAN/IS/IF member ready to pop out.

I guess the only good anti-Assad terrorist is a dead one.



So the poor terrorist exporting states will have to give heavier weapons to terrorists because evil Obama hasn't gotten them control of Damascus, poor bastards.

Shame we won't cruise missile the everyone's favorite slave labor site for funneling weapons and money to terrorists.



Be well served to stand back and allow the SAA and their militias, after they are through with the other terrorists, to march on IS (while Iraq and its militias push from the other direction) and snuff/barrel bomb them out. The Assad/Putin/IRGC/Iraq express are the only realistic hope to finish off ISIS on the ground.

============
Why on earth do you respond to your own posts BTW?

again nothing and or nothing else other than cut and paste trolling and if one reads this mwe12 response outside of being a critic of anything that does not match your personal beliefs which any troll can do...not much else there than RW ranting against Sunni's missing somehow the Shia terrorism side.

mwe12 must have been too young for the Beirut barracks and or to old/missed the entire Iraqi war as Shia terrorists killed far more US service members than did the Sunni insurgents including QJBR, not sure mwe12 even knows who QJBR is?

i keep asking him to prove just how JaN has threatened the US and or killed US citizens...which they have not but that does not matter when your only argument is "to kill them all as they are Muslims thus a threat to the US".

see actually trolling is easy as all you have to do is cut and paste, critique and not say much...any five year old can do that these days as they carry a smart phone and can google......

Trump 101............"make them wear yellow crescents".....

waste of time with this troll......

[davidbfpo]

As a Moderator I think the life of this thread has reached a limit. It is closed forthwith.

We should be debating 'what to do' with Syria, this exchange is not that.

[mwe12]

Islamist and non-Islamist mainstream rebels — to the surprise of those who have derided their performance, let alone their existence — repelled the offensive at the time.

oooo, mainstream rebels like the IF/MB.

Indeed, Moscow and the Syrian regime are content to see the United States bear the lion’s share of the effort against the jihadi monster in the east, instead concentrating on mowing through the mainstream rebellion in western Syr

As they are still in a state of rebellion and attacking government targets I am not seeing what the outrage is.

Turkey’s shooting down of a Russian military aircraft that crossed its airspace in November backfired: Moscow vengefully directed its firepower on Turkey’s rebel friends across Idlib and Aleppo provinces.

Funny how that worked out.

Moscow also courted Syria’s Kurds, who found a new partner to play off the United States in their complex relations with Washington. And Russia has agreed to a temporary accommodation of Israel’s interests in southern Syria.

Israel and the "Kurds" the only two groups the public likes over there.

Inside Syria, and despite the polite wishes of Secretary of State John Kerry, the overwhelming majority of Russian strikes have hit non-Islamic State (IS) fighters.

Even the SOHR has stated Russia has killed hundreds upon hundreds of IS fighters; and it's an interesting case of academic dishonesty when he ignores the presence of AQ and other radical groups in those "non-IS fighters." He is full of crap.

he strikes killed Zahran Alloush, the commander of the main Islamist militia there.

The cage guy who was opposed to democracy and hated religious minorities.

Further north, a combination of Assad troops, Iranian Shiite militias, and Russian firepower dislodged the powerful Islamist rebel coalition Jaish Al-Fatah from Latakia province

A group which up to a few months ago included AQ as a direct member.

One perverse consequence of cutting the Azaz corridor is that it plays into the hands of the al Qaeda-affiliate Jabhat Al-Nusra, since weapons supplies from Turkey would have to go through Idlib,

A Qatari/Turkish ally who already gets support from groups there.

Idlib may well become the regime’s next target.

In which case it would be a short term perverse consequence.

The now-plausible rebel collapse in the Aleppo region could also send thousands of fighters dejected by their apparent abandonment into the arms of Nusra or IS.

Where they will be bombed in turn.

Assad all along pursued a strategy of gradual escalation and desensitization that, sadly, worked well. Syrians already compare the international outcry and response to the IS’ siege of Kobane in 2014 to the world’s indifference to the current tragedy.

In all seriousness the PKK has better PR agents in America.

An IS defeat there would seal the border with Turkey, meeting an important American objective.

Which is a good thing.

It pressured Jabhat al-Nusra to withdraw and anointed its allies in Syria, including the prominent Islamist group Ahrar al-Sham, as its enforcers.

Brackish wine in a dirty glass, just dimmed the lights.

True to its record of calculated dithering, President Barack Obama’s administration let the Turkish proposal hang until it could no longer be implemented.

A good move, why on earth we would give AQ and it's allies a NFZ?

Turkey faces now an agonizing dilemma: watch and do nothing as a storm gathers on its border, or mount a direct intervention into Syria that would inevitably inflame its own Kurdish problem and pit it against both IS and an array of Assad-allied forces, including Russia.

The storm is the barrages which are smashing its proxies and may well help the Kurds cut off the border.

In the south, the United States has demanded a decrease in weapons deliveries to the Southern Front, while in the north, the Turkey-based operations room is reportedly dormant.

Now if that money could just be spent here and not given to TOW teams to help a bunch of Islamists try and seize power.

But to do so while exposing the rebellion to the joint Assad-Russia-Iran onslaught and without contingency planning is simply nefarious.

Strategic dithering is not nefarious.

And they all assume, probably rightly, that he is more interested in the appearance of a process than in spending any political capital over it

The people who voted him into office, aren't demanding a war with Russia over this. The public wasn't on board for war when Assad allegedly gassed people and are not on board with one now.

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Another interventionist going into a rage over the fact this bad bill of goods has no buyers and trying to spin more BS in the hopes it finds a buyer.

[OUTLAW 09]

America's backwards Syria policy: "Simply nefarious."
http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/02/05/...ampaign=buffer …

It is not only me complaining about the total failure of US FP......and I am a simple American sitting in Berlin watching a disaster unfold in both eastern Ukraine and Syria due to the lack of coherent, clear and concise US leadership other than "talk"...just "talk".

Any thirdgrader can "talk".....

Can the Obama WH make it even worse...yes they can as the radicalization of the anti Assad forces especially FSA, al Sham and JaI will be in fact a move towards JaN and IS...so with one swift stupid move by Obama he will be adding and additional 70K fighters to JaN and IS.

While Obama and Kerry both "talk" a great game".......here is the Assad and Putin calculation...by driving the sheer destruction ie Grozny style into the heart of the anti Assad opposition it will drive them to JaN and IS.....THEN Putin and Assad can sit back and say to the Sunni's it is either me or "them" take your choice......I seriously do not think both Obama and Putin fully understand what the outcomes are on this move for Syria and the wider ME......

Taken from the article:

Ever since 2011, the United States has hidden behind the hope of a Russian shift and closed its eyes to Putin’s mischief to avoid the hard choices on Syria. When the Russian onslaught started, U.S. officials like Deputy Secretary of State Tony Blinken predicted a quagmire to justify Washington’s passivity. If Russia’s intervention was doomed to failure, after all, the United States was not on the hook to act.

Russia, however, has been not only been able to increase the tempo of its military operations, but also to justify the mounting cost. And contrary to some pundits, who hailed the Russian intervention as the best chance to check the expansion of IS, Washington knows all too well that the result of the Russian campaign is the strengthening of the jihadist group in central Syria in the short term. This is a price Washington seems willing to pay for the sake of keeping the Geneva process alive.

The bankruptcy of U.S. policy goes deeper. The United States has already conceded key points about Assad’s future — concessions that Russia and the regime have been quick to pocket, while giving nothing in return. In the lead-up to and during the first days of the Geneva talks, it became clear that the United States is putting a lot more pressure on the opposition than it does on Russia, let alone Assad. Just as Russia escalates politically and militarily, the Obama administration is cynically de-escalating, and asking its allies to do so as well. This is weakening rebel groups that rely on supply networks that the U.S. oversees: In the south, the United States has demanded a decrease in weapons deliveries to the Southern Front, while in the north, the Turkey-based operations room is reportedly dormant.

The result is a widespread and understandable feeling of betrayal in the rebellion, whose U.S.-friendly elements are increasingly losing face within opposition circles. This could have the ironic effect of fragmenting the rebellion — after years of Western governments bemoaning the divisions between these very same groups.

Actually what is interesting is that this WH has made the same exact mistakes in Ukraine causing me to ask over and over "just where is the difference between the Obama FP and the Putin FP"...there is none....

[OUTLAW 09]

The stupidity of this Obama WH, NSC and Kerry never fails to amaze me...."ask permission to drop humanitarian aid"...come on since when does one of the five main members of the UNSC have to "ask permission" when even Putin is on record for providing aid via THREE UNSC resolutions......ALL supported by Putin.

AT the same time you clearly and concisely state at the UNSC Russia and Assad are in full and total violation of international humanitarian treaties in their use of starvation....and the use of barrel bombs and deliberate Russian air strikes targeting civilians is a war crime.

Will Russia really allow the US to airdrop food to Syrian towns besieged by the Russian-backed government?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...2892&tid=ss_tw …

You state to the UNSC you are providing aid under their own resolutions, and that Russia is blocking that aid, you announce the flight times and indicate full air cover will be provided and then drop....

If one is never willing to backup diplomacy with "a show of force"..... diplomacy with Putin is designed to fail....it is that simple....

We have seen what even Obama himself stated to the world "we will judge Putin by his actions not his words"...well we have the actions WHERE are Obama's actions.

Even the third grader knows when to defend himself on the playground...this President evidently was never on a playground.....