Originally Posted by Granite_State
Americans forget how prickly we were--we threw out occupiers who shared our culture and religion over the price of tea!
Americans forget how prickly we were--we threw out occupiers who shared our culture and religion over the price of tea!
America played a large role in bringing progress to the Middle East. Made many governments and certain individuals very wealthy, including the bin Laden family. In return for such good will we over empathize with their dogma to a fault. So much so that we are more willing to discuss what we don't understand about them and avoid what they have done as of late. It is very surprising to see so many people so surprised at the way Muslims behave as if it is a shortcoming of our own because we can't feel for them. Just about every amendment to our constitution is for the benefit of the individual. And yet we so readily accuse ourselves of being unable to perceive the culture of others. Empathy is one thing. Sympathy is entirely different. But one surely leads to the latter when we are not careful. We may find ourselves with having to choose between conversion, death, or enslavement. Only because we disagree whether a pothole is worth repairing in the long run. We are quick to point out the virtues of the other man's culture and our lack of empathy but hesitant to discuss in even greater detail the threat of the other man's culture, dogma, and ideology on our own culture. I realize that empathizing is an important element in planning against a threatening culture, dogma, or ideology but there is a time where killing that idea is just as much or even more important. Over rationalizing other cultures by finding fault with our own is a self-defeating defense mechanism. Rationalizing on how to counter a threat from another culture based on an understanding of that culture is enough. Especially, when that culture's ultimate goal is your demise, that the Quran is a living document in the most dangerous of hands, and it is a sin of said culture/religion/law to question such decisions made as a result.
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
There are a few points of discussion here:America played a large role in bringing progress to the Middle East. Made many governments and certain individuals very wealthy, including the bin Laden family. In return for such good will we over empathize with their dogma to a fault. So much so that we are more willing to discuss what we don't understand about them and avoid what they have done as of late. It is very surprising to see so many people so surprised at the way Muslims behave as if it is a shortcoming of our own because we can't feel for them. Just about every amendment to our constitution is for the benefit of the individual. And yet we so readily accuse ourselves of being unable to perceive the culture of others.
1. Contributing to the wealth of certain governments and individuals has not made the United States popular in the eyes of many people. Concentrated wealth is one of the problems in many areas of the world, not just the Middle East. Citizens aren't fools. When they see conspicuous wealth while their children are living in destitution, they respect neither those with wealth nor those who enabled that wealth.
2. People in other nations are critical of U.S. motives when the United States is perceived to be choosing sides in sectarian disputes and conflicts. For a home-grown example, recall what happened when Osama bin Laden in October 2004 issued a statement perceived to favor John Kerry over George Bush in the U.S. presidential election. That was not welcomed by either political party.
3. The U.S. Constitutional emphasis on individual rights and freedoms is part of our cultural norm. It is is an ideal that the United States has offered to the world since the 1770s, but it is not universally shared. It was very interesting to read General Odierno's new Counter-Insurgency guidance, recdently posted on the Small Wars Journal Blog and elsewhere. Item 2 says to "Give the People Justice and Honor." That is what they value most in their cultural context. The United States values personal rights and freedom. Iraqis value justice and honor. This is a powerful insight on the part of the U.S. and Coalition authorities. Imagine, again, a scenerio in which an occupying power arrived in the United States and operated by placing the greatest emphasis on its own values of justice and honor while downplaying individual rights and freedoms.
Last edited by VinceC; 06-16-2007 at 11:51 AM.
That is utterly ridiculous to assume or limit your response that our culture is limited to personal rights and freedom that exclude justice and honor. Your post is a perfect example of the point I attempted to make. We may agree to disagree but you give a perfect example. Like I stated, an understanding of a threatening culture is enough in a hostile situation. Otherwise, you are going talk and think your way into not only empathizing but sympathizing as well. It can even lead to even further destructive behavior like the LtCol that gave his cellphone to prisoners so they can make personal phone calls. Now, he faces charges that have a capital punishment tag attached to it. The message behind the movie, "Apocalypse Now" is often lost due to the fantastic action and cinematography. We have all seen the movie. Has anyone payed close attention to the ideology of Colonel Kurtz in the storyline? I see the beginning of some of the same type of dissertation coursing through a lot of threads. Interesting.
Last edited by Culpeper; 06-16-2007 at 05:29 PM. Reason: Added a one word disclaimer (:
"But suppose everybody on our side felt that way?"
"Then I'd certainly be a damned fool to feel any other way. Wouldn't I?"
Understanding your enemies point of view is all very well. However it has it's limits. You could just as easily watch Red Dawn and think,"What would we think if we were bringing the wonders of Soviet Society into a country and the ungrateful little brats just shot at us and then ran away and pretended to be civillians...".
Or you can think, "How would you feel if newcomers came in, invited you to be their allies. And then just up and left-leaving you to be hosed".
Oh wait, I can guess that because in my city there are a number of Hmong tribesmen. And they live in Oregon. And they don't live in Indochina.
Or you can ask, "What would you think if you were afraid that the most influential people in your country were to busy feeling guilty to take their responsibilities seriously."
Oh wait...
Empathizing with your enemy is fine. I can empathise with my country's past enemies. I can even empathise with the Germans which by the way few seem to be able to do now(Is that shocking? Consider what it was like having your cities burned above you and waiting for the Russians to come...closer...closer. And all the while wondering if The Rumors were true).
But empathizing with the Germans hardly means I don't think their regime had to be destroyed.
And oh yes, they had their own "boy scouts" disappearing into the woods to fight the invaders. Just like Red Dawn.
Kinda sorta.
Likely, most of my ancestors would have said no to sharing the same culture as the British. After about a hundred years, more or less, in Ulster they evidently felt that they were not Scottish enough to be Scottish, Irish enough to be Irish, or British enough to be British, so they decided to become Americans.Blame good King James I for that one.
Okay, so economics in 18th Century Ulster probably had something to do with emigrating too. Why spoil a nice thought?
"Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen." - Jeff Cooper
juxtapositions
On a lighter note and back to the movie "Red Dawn" I have always been struck by the temporal juxtaposition of Patrick Swayze playing the leading role in "Dirty Dancing" while just a few years earlier playing the chief American wolverine insurgent in "Red Dawn." Sort of like the shift made by Jeff Daniels as Joshua Chamberlain in "Gettysburg" to the idiot he played in "Dumb and Dumber."
Neither of these two juxtapositions have ever really set right with me; always get sort of discombobulated by them.
Am I the only one?
gian
Col. Gentile you are not the only one. A few of those character studies just elude me. I recently watched "Kin" with Patrick Swayzee as a friend of mine set up all the archery tackle used in the movie.. I never knew that an arrow would make make a person fly through the air like they'd been hit by a mortar round. I also didn't know that that Appalachia is next to Chicago, which is next to New Orleans. And the Patrick Swayzee character with pony tail was the epitome of a 1980's detective... Really? I guess that is why I never watch war movies, or cop movies.
Sam Liles
Selil Blog
Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.
Now Sam to be accurate no modern bow leaves an arrow sticking in someone's chest; it passes through so quickly the target does not register a hit until the arrow is long gone.
But then again, look at all those explosive/incendiary bullets that spark everytime they hit anything.
Gian, I believe Jeff Daniels also played George Washington, did he not?
And who can forget his role as the woman-pleasing vacumm salesman in "Super Sucker". There is a real oral connectrion between those two roles, given GW's dental problems and the real use of the super sucker attachments.
Col. Gentile,
Another fine demonstration of the venerable Patrick Swayze's acting versatility is the juxtaposition of 1989's Road House to 1990's Ghost.
In Road House Swayze plays James Dalton, a zen-like bouncer par excellence hired to pacify the unruly Double Deuce nightclub of Jasper, Missouri. What ensues is a story of socioeconomic class struggle in the American heartland, complimented by generous portions of blues guitar riffs and ass-kicking.
Similarly, Ghost is a tender love story where Swayze plays Sam Wheat. Sam is a loving husband brutally murdered and left on earth as a ghost to warn his wife of her impending danger. However, Sam can only communicate to his wife through a psychic played by a sassy Whoopi Goldberg, tenderness and hilarity ensues.
The best part of Red Dawn is when the Air-force Col. is briefing the kids on what happened and how the war started. "Jed" asked the Col. "who is on our side?" The Col. replied "1 billion screaming Chinese." Another kid then says "last I heard there were 2 billion screaming Chinese?" The Col. then replied "THERE WAS" and then dumped his alcohol on the fire causing a big flame to shoot up.
Now, that's hardcore.
"Politics are too important to leave to the politicians"
That's a waste of good booze.
Sam Liles
Selil Blog
Don't forget to duck Secret Squirrel
The scholarship of teaching and learning results in equal hatred from latte leftists and cappuccino conservatives.
All opinions are mine and may or may not reflect those of my employer depending on the chance it might affect funding, politics, or the setting of the sun. As such these are my opinions you can get your own.
There's another good part of the movie that includes booze. After the "insurgents" raided the re-education camp, they were escaping on the back of a truck, at which time the Col. yelled "DasVidanya" while holding up a bottle of booze.
That too, is hardcore.
"Politics are too important to leave to the politicians"
Think that's bad. Check out "To Wong Foo..." Wesley Snipes and Swayze in drag. Then there's Schwarzenegger's weird hops between James Cameron and Danny Devito.
.
Too, too funny!!!
I guess one should not overthink such things and accept it all as just "art."
gian
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks