Controversial article about parachute operations

[120mm]

Not that I WANT to get "piled on", but someone has to do it, I suppose, to what extent do you suppose that airborne operations are conducted because of airborne's presence and influence within the Army as a whole? I would suggest that especially in the case of OIF, airborne ops "may" be conducted in order to say that airborne ops were conducted.

I would suggest that while Airborne Operations are a valid, and possibly even vital tool in the Army "toolbox", that Airborne, and Airborne Operations wield an influence way out of proportion of their/its importance. And this is not necessarily Good For The Army. It's kind of like a guy who's only tool is an Airborne Brigade; Everything starts looking like a combat drop.

To be sure, Airborne does a good job of IO campaign within the Army, and one of their key tactics is to make Airborne wings into a merit badge for young officers. Where their influence becomes less of an "interesting" thing, and more of a "seriously damages the Army" thing, is when the Airborne mafia tries to forces "C-130 deployable" on each and every piece of equipment's specification chart. This reduces equipment capability, adds unnecessary cost, and hardly ever results in a "C-130 deployable" piece of equipment.

I am now digging my hole and putting up 18 inches of overhead cover in preparation for the inevitable counter-battery fire.

[Mike Spight]

Until SGM Grumpy forwarded the link to Meyer's webzine, I didn't know (or care) who he was. After reading the article (and his previous issue in which he stated that the creation of USSOCOM was a bad idea) I did care.

As most eveyone here has stated, he's clearly a moron...ill equipped to comment on a capability and community in which some of us have spent many years.

I exchanged emails with Meyer but will not post here. Let's just say that his defensive, wise assed response to my courteous query regarding his military credentials was exactly what I expected and spoke volumes.

ATW,

Mike

[Steve Blair]

Actually I think this is a valid tangent question. I don't know enough about the more current drops to comment on them, but the drops during the latter part of the Korean War and certainly the drop of a battalion of the 173rd during Junction City in Vietnam have been called unnecessary by many historians. The drop in Vietnam is especially worthy of note in this regard, since they lifted the remainder of the brigade in by helicopter later the same day.

The airborne mafia has been a fixture in the Army since the end of World War II. I happen to think that airborne forces have an important place in any army's toolkit, but I also do think that it's easy to exaggerate their importance and too easy for some to misuse them or assume they're capable of things that they are not.

[Mike Spight]

Steve,

No argument from me on your last paragraph...misuse of conventional Airborne and SOF is well known...

And as a former boss of mine once said: "Never mistake enthusiasm for capability".

ATW...

Mike

[RTK]

Until SGM Grumpy forwarded the link to Meyer's webzine, I didn't know (or care) who he was. After reading the article (and his previous issue in which he stated that the creation of USSOCOM was a bad idea) I did care.

As most eveyone here has stated, he's clearly a moron...ill equipped to comment on a capability and community in which some of us have spent many years.

I exchanged emails with Meyer but will not post here. Let's just say that his defensive, wise assed response to my courteous query regarding his military credentials was exactly what I expected and spoke volumes.

ATW,

Mike

I e-mailed the SOCOM article to a retired SF officer. His response was extremely appropriate; "Clearly someone with an opinion without all the facts." A good outlook that can be applied to just about any of his essays on that site.

Welcome to the forum, Sir!

[Mike Spight]

Thanks RTK; it's been a while since I've visited and it's good to be back.

ATW...

Mike

[Bill Moore]

Is there an Airborne Mafia? Yes. Is there an Armor Mafia? Yes Is there a Stryker Mafia? Yes. Is the Marine Corp one big Mafia? Yes Does each mafia look after the family business? Yes

I think many of us in this council have been on planning teams for numerous contingencies, and we have all experienced every service, and sub-elements of the services trying to get in on a mission, whether their particular capability fit our not. You go to joint schools and then work in joint commands you quickly learn that the best plan isn't the best plan, but rather the most purple plan is the best plan. Jointness has become a mantra that has over rode common sense. Our entire system is flawed, and yet we hear more call for more jointness! Jointness is good when it facilitates needed dovetailing, but it is evil when it forces illogical combinations. We seem to have a some sort of perverted combination of a socialist and capitialist mentality in the military, where our socialist side begs for equal participation, and our capitialist side urges us to compete with our fellow American Warriors for a key position in the fight. Everyone gets to take credit for it, and everyone can use Operation Whatever to justify future budget requests. I'm not sure there is a solution, maybe one service? If that was the case it should clearly be led by a combination of the Army Airborne and SOF

120mm you're clearly wrong, there is no more important capability than the Airborne!

[RTK]

Is there an Airborne Mafia? Yes. Is there an Armor Mafia? Yes Is there a Stryker Mafia? Yes. Is the Marine Corp one big Mafia? Yes Does each mafia look after the family business? Yes

I think many of us in this council have been on planning teams for numerous contingencies, and we have all experienced every service, and sub-elements of the services trying to get in on a mission, whether their particular capability fit our not. You go to joint schools and then work in joint commands you quickly learn that the best plan isn't the best plan, but rather the most purple plan is the best plan. Jointness has become a mantra that has over rode common sense. Our entire system is flawed, and yet we hear more call for more jointness! Jointness is good when it facilitates needed dovetailing, but it is evil when it forces illogical combinations. We seem to have a some sort of perverted combination of a socialist and capitialist mentality in the military, where our socialist side begs for equal participation, and our capitialist side urges us to compete with our fellow American Warriors for a key position in the fight. Everyone gets to take credit for it, and everyone can use Operation Whatever to justify future budget requests. I'm not sure there is a solution, maybe one service? If that was the case it should clearly be led by a combination of the Army Airborne and SOF

120mm you're clearly wrong, there is no more important capability than the Airborne!

The Airborne Mafia has never had a problem when the Armor Mafia shows up when they're in contact...

[Bill Moore]

That is true, a brother in need never turns down a helping hand. That reminds of the Airborne Mafia poster, that shows a lone paratrooper with his rifle at Bastonge (I believe), and the caption read something like, they're not going any further, I'm airborne, or something like it. Hell, that is almost as good Marine propaganda.

[tequila]

That is true, a brother in need never turns down a helping hand. That reminds of the Airborne Mafia poster, that shows a lone paratrooper with his rifle at Bastonge (I believe), and the caption read something like, they're not going any further, I'm airborne, or something like it. Hell, that is almost as good Marine propaganda.

Easy there, crazy! Next thing you're going to be saying that the Germans didn't really call us Teufel hunden, or that every Marine isn't really a rifleman.

[Tom Odom]

That is true, a brother in need never turns down a helping hand. That reminds of the Airborne Mafia poster, that shows a lone paratrooper with his rifle at Bastonge (I believe), and the caption read something like, they're not going any further, I'm airborne, or something like it. Hell, that is almost as good Marine propaganda.

I have that on my office wall....

We are not a Mafia, we are a clan

[Jedburgh]

That is true, a brother in need never turns down a helping hand. That reminds of the Airborne Mafia poster, that shows a lone paratrooper with his rifle at Bastonge (I believe), and the caption read something like, they're not going any further, I'm airborne, or something like it. Hell, that is almost as good Marine propaganda.

As an American tank was withdrawing under fire from the German advance through the Ardennes Forest, it came across a lone paratrooper digging his fox hole. It stopped next to him. The tired and cold paratrooper yelled to the tank, "Looking for a safe place? Well, pull your tank in behind me! I'm the 82nd Airborne and this is as far as those bastards are going!"



That poster is in damn near every Company area at the Deuce, and is proudly posted on the walls of many a paratrooper no longer at Bragg.

[120mm]

You know, I'm a committed "Leg" but that poster is some Good ####(tm).

As an old DIV CAV guy, I'll be the first to admit that the ACR CAV mafia hasn't done the Army any favors. Way too much emphasis on using CAV as stabbers/shooters, and they've lost the bubble completely on Intel gathering. Even to the point of letting MI have the UAS mission. And, frankly, I've not met an MI guy yet that understood how to use their UAS's.

I would guess that is the problem with all the "mafias." Style moves in to replace substance.

[Ken White]

Smiled a lot and one of the biggest came at Last Dingo's suggestion of the eleventy ton Cesar replacing the M777. That led me to ponder the benefit of replacing one externally manned 155 for another -- with a weight penalty.

Can't for the life of me figure why he didn't recommend the Bofors Archer, no exposed troops and a higher rate of fire, far quicker in and out of action time...

Now, I must go refill my bourbon glass and ponder rooftop PLFs or even a standing landing with an MC4 --and four Ranger Companies running amok with no Battalion to support and defend, Not to mention changes in Ranger and 82d missions that the negatonians seem to blissfully be unaware of...

Oh, and for he who posited the combat drops occurred late in the Korean War, actually, they occurred early in the war. One was probably important, the other got caught and made less critical by the speed of ground advance -- and that's a plus.

Junction City drop wasn't a total waste, friend of mine got to get close to Catherine Leroy who jumped with 'em.

[Ken White]

You know, I'm a committed "Leg" but that poster is some Good ####(tm).

As an old DIV CAV guy, I'll be the first to admit that the ACR CAV mafia hasn't done the Army any favors. Way too much emphasis on using CAV as stabbers/shooters, and they've lost the bubble completely on Intel gathering. Even to the point of letting MI have the UAS mission. And, frankly, I've not met an MI guy yet that understood how to use their UAS's.

I would guess that is the problem with all the "mafias." Style moves in to replace substance.

In order:

Leg is passe, not PC, you know. However, Earthlings need love too, so we of the Anointed forgive you ...

ACRs do both missions by design; speaking as an old 19D among other things, Cav of any echelon is flexible enough to do both as you know and emphasis depends upon mission demands made by the situation, I think...

Only if the bosses let it. Good Commanders don't.