Unconventional Warfare Command?

**Rob Thornton** · 09-22-2007

It seems to me that it would be one of those "solutions" that avoids the real problems, and only complicates making real headway in addressing the threats we face. It would just add more layers of misplaced bureaucracy and CMD structure. Useful change has to come from evolving our existing institutions and having better understanding of the world and how it effects us; our enemies and how they attempt to deter/injure/destroy us; and the objectives that protect our vital interests, and our allies or who share common interests and goals.
Regards, Rob

**Ken White** · 09-22-2007

Let SOCOM do the DA bit, transfer the the SF groups back to the Army proper and move on. That is a worse idea for a separate command than even SOCOM.

If they just gotta stand up a new Joint command, do it with a Medical Command -- that's dumb but with only one 'b'b and it won't do nearly as much damage as as a UWCom -- which anyway would sound too much like EuCom and confuse the media even more than their normal state...

Come to think of, it if we really want to improve things, we should try the Singlaub apparoach to DoD.

**Beowulf** · 09-22-2007

I've got the snail's eye view of things, but why re-organize into yet another command structure.

We already have numerous commands in place, not to mention the SMU's and other little TF's that get put together from time to time.

I just don't understand why we need another command, seems like more "leadership by penmanship" (not my phrase btw).

**MattC86** · 09-22-2007

Given the littany of complaints about military bureaucracy from Vietnam and Iraq, I fail to see why adding a new layer is going to solve these problems.

For starters, where would such a command fit in with the regional CinC structure? Would their assets be loaned out to the various COMs for contigency operations? Or would they be entirely seperate like SOCOM units?

Such a command would have so much turf fighting to do that I doubt it would ever make it to an unconventional battlefield. . .

Besides, IMO, the military is going to do less full-scale COIN/nation-building and more FID-style operations in the post-Iraq world anyway.

Matt

**Patriot** · 09-22-2007

An assuption for any unconventional warfare (UW) structure is that SOF are the resident experts and sole sorce of UW operations. This assumption may not be accurate and may lead military services in the wrong direction. In Iraq, SOF conduct direct action conventional operations primarily (not exclusively but the majority of their actions are capture/kill). UW is conducted by "conventional" forces. The complexity of operations and battlespace make direct action only one component of combat operations. A typical BCT or TF in Iraq conducts reconcilation with Sunni and Shia elements, civil support operations, governance support operations, economic development and reconstruction operations, security forces training and partnering, and direct action. These complex tasks require living with and intimately knowning and understanding Iraqs on a neighborhood basis.

SOF move into an AO they do not own, coduct a capture/kill operation and exfil. The consequences of their actions are not focused on them but on the "land" owner. This is not a criticism of the superb operations CF SOF do daily, simply a recognition that Iraq has unique envrons that allow conventional forces to conduct UW operations.

US forces do not need another command. What is needed is developing the tools and skills within conventional and special forces to operation in the dynamic complexity of current and future battlefields.

**Uboat509** · 09-22-2007

Originally Posted by Ken White

Let SOCOM do the DA bit, transfer the the SF groups back to the Army proper and move on.

Good God, no. Transfering SF back to the regualar Army will only hamstring us. There is a huge difference in mind-set. No good can come from putting us back under big Army control.

SFC W

**Pragmatic Thinker** · 10-01-2007

Originally Posted by Uboat509

Good God, no. Transfering SF back to the regualar Army will only hamstring us. There is a huge difference in mind-set. No good can come from putting us back under big Army control.

SFC W

That will never happen! However, don't kid yourselves when you look at who answers to who in our current theaters of war. If you pay attention, you will see the JSOTF's answering to the conventional commanders on the ground and I won't get into the CAS and trans reliance on the conventional forces as well in each theater. It's a little muddy in the water when you think about UW, but then again what is UW and who is really doing it right now? It's the same debate I hear about FID, who really conducts it and who doesn't? If I go on patrol with ANA or IA, is that FID? What if they're turds and I don't trust them as far as I can throw them? Am I conducting FID? I have seen PowerPoint slides that say 'yes' this is FID, so this debate will rage on like a case of farts after a chili cook-off and smell just as bad. Personally, I think UW is a great concept and in its purest form you saw 5th SFG do it during the earliest days of OEF, but the shame there was the conventional guys didn't have the slighest CONOP on Afghanistan, so when they rushed into theater to do the hand-off to take C2 of the war they were less than prepared.

PT

**John T. Fishel** · 10-01-2007

OK, I'll join the chorus but with a caveat. There are times when reorganization actually does provide a solution to a problem. The only way to fix DOD in the 1980s was something like Goldwater-Nichols (full name, the DOD Reorganization Act of 1986). Incidentally, it was supplemented by the Cohen-Nunn Amendment that created USSOCOM and ASD/SO-LIC which also was a real problem solver. That said, it was the implementation by the first CINCSOC, GEN Jim Lindsay, that really resolved the problems the new organization was meant to address. Lindsay conceived of a Joint Mission Analysis process that served to get the regional CINCs behind him and defined SOCOM's mission. A better solution to the current problem than another reorganization might well be a Linsay like initiative to revisit the Joint Mission analysis for SOCOM. Do it honestly and take its findings to heart.

Cheers

JohnT

**Ken White** · 10-01-2007

Originally Posted by Uboat509

Good God, no. Transfering SF back to the regualar Army will only hamstring us. There is a huge difference in mind-set. No good can come from putting us back under big Army control.

SFC W

Having been there in another lifetime when the Groups did work for big Army, it isn't that bad.

Parochialism exists today and the fact that you guys work for SOCOM possibly exacerbates the friction on the ground more than it would if you were all working for the same Commander...

There will always be conflict between the plodders and the hot-shots. Those, terms, by the way are not pejorative and not accurate but are merely hyperbolic usage to illustrate the perceptions of some people in each grouping.

That conflict is as old as warfare and is probably not going to go away.

Recall also that I -- and I know I'm not alone in this thought -- have bemoaned the fact that SF as a branch has eliminated to a too great extent the movement of Officers between big Army and the Groups. Both have suffered from that loss.

In any event, it's unlikely to happen.

Just in case, though, I'm using my chemistry set and am working on a Non Parochial Just Get the Job Done pill to be called Nopajugjodone...

**Rob Thornton** · 10-01-2007

Just in case, though, I'm using my chemistry set and am working on a Non Parochial Just Get the Job Done pill to be called Nopajugjodone...

it have one of those cool commercials like Cialis and Viagra? Or will it just have a tag that says..."continued use could make you more effective.... however if you turn purple for more then 2 missions see your branch rep for an assignment to the Pentagon"

Best regards, Rob

**Ken White** · 10-02-2007

Originally Posted by Rob Thornton

it have one of those cool commercials like Cialis and Viagra? Or will it just have a tag that says..."continued use could make you more effective.... however if you turn purple for more then 2 missions see your branch rep for an assignment to the Pentagon"

Best regards, Rob

are talking to Bob Dole's people...

On the side effects, the one you cite is a problem; the solution is to lengthen WesPac tours, expand Thule and reopen Several compounds up north in Korea...

Then use Jack Singlaub's solution to the Pentagon problem.