Dealing with Haditha

[SSG Rock]

Now it seems that stories of atrocities are coming out of the woodwork. Is there a systemic problem among our troops? Perhaps the frustration of being struck without being able to strike back? I am becoming increasingly concerned about the things I'm reading. I watched the program about Lima Company, a Marine Reserve Company with the dubious record of having had the highest number of KIA in OIF. I was alarmed that during interviews with some of the Marines, a number of them mentioned (admitted) that they grew very close to taking out their anger on Iraqi civilians. Thankfully, they did not, but it does seem to indicate to me that there are Americans over there, armed to the teeth, under alot of stress, who might give in to the temptation.

I also heard, that the preliminary report on the Hadithah incident is being circulated at the Pentagon now, and it is going to be bad, very bad. Batton down the hatches, this will be Abu Graihb x 10.

[Merv Benson]

What ever happened in Haditha came as a result of a continuing war crime by the enemy in Iraq. When the enemy refuses to wear identifying uniforms and camoflages himself as a civilian in violation of the Geneva Convention he puts all civilians at risk. I am sure that one of the issues in any trial that may result from the investigation of events in Haditha will be at what point should the Marines involved have recognized that they were dealing with civilians and not the enemy camoflaged as civilians.

This cases should give the world an opportunity to focus on this continuing war crime by the enemy and the results that flows from it.

It should also be noted that the enemy in Iraq deliberately targets non combatants, not as a result of reacting to attacks, but as deliberate policy. This is also a war crime and is much worse than what is alleged to have happened at Haditha.

We should also remember that whatever happened there will likely be ajudicated in the military justices system. Does the enemy have a military justice system beyond head chopping?

My point is that while some may try to make polical points at the expense of the Marines who were operating in Haditha, those points lack perspective and validity. To use these Marines as props for their anti war agenda is despicable.

[SWJED]

I also heard, that the preliminary report on the Hadithah incident is being circulated at the Pentagon now, and it is going to be bad, very bad. Batton down the hatches, this will be Abu Graihb x 10.

... and maybe me more than you as a retired Marine and now in my day job as a consultant to the Corps. The RUMINT covers all spectrums - AG X 10 all the way to much less than AG.

This is a difficult issue - one that needs to play out through official channels.

I debated long and hard on how to handle this on the SWC.

To completely ignore the issue and post away on Small Wars related news, concepts, tactics, etal - would be akin to living in denial and not do justice to those of us who are striving to do our damnest to support our warfighters and, of course, the warfighters.

Speculation only compounds the problem. Commenting on press reports does not as the words are "out there"...

My desire here is to have a healthy discussion on how we continue our efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere; while this cloud looms overhead. We should strive to contribute in our own small way to our boots on the ground guys and gals in their efforts to deliver a functional government and society to all the countries involved. If that is too much to ask for – then what are we doing there?

Someone, somewhere has to be the proponent of moving on and past whatever highs and lows we have in this “Long War”. And yes, we are in this for the long haul...

Tough job, but we have some smart people here on the SWC - much smarter than me…

[slapout9]

These poor guys are going to get attacked on all sides. Can we do something to help in their defense? Can any former Marine here contact F.Lee Bailey so they can have some kind of a chance at a fair trial?

[SSG Rock]

... and maybe me more than you as a retired Marine and now in my day job as a consultant to the Corps. The RUMINT covers all spectrums - AG X 10 all the way to much less than AG. Understood.

This is a difficult issue - one that needs to play out through official channels. Yes, I should not have speculated. Thats the advice I've been giving my associates. The investigation must be completed before we can accurately comment, I suppose that I'm afraid the news is going to be bad and I dread the reaction in the MSM and I only want to be prepared for the broadsides.

I debated long and hard on how to handle this on the SWC.

To completely ignore the issue and post away on Small Wars related news, concepts, tactics, etal - would be akin to living in denial and not do justice to those of us who are striving to do our damnest to support our warfighters and, of course, the warfighters.

Speculation only compounds the problem. Commenting on press reports does not as the words are "out there"...

My desire here is to have a healthy discussion on how we continue our efforts in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere; while this cloud looms overhead. We should strive to contribute in our own small way to our boots on the ground guys and gals in their efforts to deliver a functional government and society to all the countries involved. If that is too much to ask for – then what are we doing there? Are we willing to risk continuity in order to offer adequate R&R for the troops? I think we should, obviously OPTEMPO takes a toll on our warriors in many ways. The ability to make appropriate on the spot decisions being one of them. Some of our troops are on their third tour in OIF/OEF. I think we are reaching the WWII threshold with regard to deployment lengths. Add the fact that our troops are fighting an unconventional war, the stress must be enormous.

Someone, somewhere has to be the proponent of moving on and past whatever highs and lows we have in this “Long War”. And yes, we are in this for the long haul...All we can do is try to be the voice of reason and remind folks that 99% of our troops are peforming magnificently in tough conditions and that they deserve the nation's support. Also, it would serve the American public well to keep this in perspective. While not condoning criminal activity, we must remind the American people this is war, that the terrorists have committed worse atrocities. That from the Civil War to Vietnam, atrocities against noncombatants and POWs have occured, this is not unusual although regretable. The American people need to understand that if criminal activity is substantiated the UCMJ will deal with it appropriately and, that the 99% of our troops fighting this war will continue to need our support and that is where our focus should be concentrated.

Tough job, but we have some smart people here on the SWC - much smarter than me…

Well, I'm not one of them. But this one is hitting me hard. I can't help but hope our Marines were somehow set up.

Is this what some terror groups refer to as a harvest?

[SWJED]

From SWJ friends Allen and John at Cox and Forkum...

Second Coat?

From CNN today: U.S. military mourns 'tragic' Haditha deaths.

The U.S. military offered condolences on Thursday to relatives of 24 Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha last November in events that are now being investigated as possible murder by Marines. ...

The Washington Post on Thursday reported that the U.S. investigation into the aftermath of the killings is expected to say that some officers gave false information to superiors, who then did not check details.

A military source said it was evidence, including death certificates, indicating that many of the 24 civilians had been shot at close range that led to a full-scale criminal probe into the alleged massacre in March.

This cartoon was inspired by a comment from Hugh Hewitt seen on InstaPundit:

The media frenzy around the actions of a handful of Marines is now building and, as happened with the illegal acts at Abu Graib, will be used to advance agendas unrelated to the allegations, agendas which trade on the slander of the American military, and which use the very rare exceptions to paint broadly, even as the enemy will.

From CNN: A reporter's shock at the Haditha allegations.

It actually took me a while to put all the pieces together -- that I know these guys, the U.S. Marines at the heart of the alleged massacre of Iraqi civilians in Haditha.

I don't know why it didn't register with me until now. It was only after scrolling through the tapes that we shot in Haditha last fall, and I found footage of some of the officers that had been relieved of their command, that it hit me.

I know the Marines that were operating in western al Anbar, from Husayba all the way to Haditha. I went on countless operations in 2005 up and down the Euphrates River Valley. I was pinned on rooftops with them in Ubeydi for hours taking incoming fire, and I've seen them not fire a shot back because they did not have positive identification on a target.

I saw their horror when they thought that they finally had identified their target, fired a tank round that went through a wall and into a house filled with civilians. They then rushed to help the wounded -- remarkably no one was killed.

UPDATE I: A soldier's perspective at Frontline Forum: The Haditha Killings by Jeffrey Barnett.

While I cannot speak intelligently on the Haditha incident, I do think I can comment on possible causes of these types of tragic events: a frustration most can’t understand. I don’t condone any use of force outside our directed rules of engagement and escalation of force procedures. However, I can understand why violations of the ROE happen, however unjustified they may be.

UPDATE II -- June 2: Here we go ... from The New York Times: Iraqi Assails U.S. for Strikes on Civilians.

Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki lashed out at the American military on Thursday, denouncing what he characterized as habitual attacks by troops against Iraqi civilians.

As outrage over reports that American marines killed 24 Iraqis in the town of Haditha last year continued to shake the new government, the country's senior leaders said that they would demand that American officials turn over their investigative files on the killings and that the Iraqi government would conduct its own inquiry.

In his comments, Mr. Maliki said violence against civilians had become a "daily phenomenon" by many troops in the American-led coalition who "do not respect the Iraqi people."

"They crush them with their vehicles and kill them just on suspicion," he said. "This is completely unacceptable." Attacks on civilians will play a role in future decisions on how long to ask American forces to remain in Iraq, the prime minister added.

This article is accompanied by a photo of two Iraqis mourning over coffins. You have to read the caption to know that the deaths has nothing to do with the headline about American soldiers killing civilians.

[SWJED]

6 June Los Angeles Times commentary Marines in Iraq: The Warriors' Way by David Danelo.

... As the furor grows over allegations that Marines killed 24 Iraqi civilians last November — including women and children — the origins of Howell's discipline are worth examining.

The Corps is the smallest of the United States' military services, and it also has the highest enlisted-to-officer ratio (about 10 to 1). Because of this, a much higher level of responsibility is placed on corporals and sergeants, or noncommissioned officers. In each Marine infantry battalion, which is the primary combat element, an average of 60 noncommissioned officers lead squads or a unit of similar size. As squad leaders, they assume responsibility for the lives — and split-second decisions — of about a dozen men.

Marines are legendary for their monastic devotion to the warrior ideal. The mottos inked on their bodies — Death Before Dishonor, Make Peace or Die, Always Faithful — function as physical scriptures for their choice of religion, like scapulars, phylacteries or "What Would Jesus Do?" bracelets. The ancient Spartans, who sacrificed at the battle of Thermopylae to defend the Greeks from the Persian onslaught, are venerated as saints within the Corps. The Spartan Way is a stoic faith.

Since the fall of 2001, 26 active duty and nine Marine Reserve infantry battalions have rotated into and out of Afghanistan and Iraq as units for seven-month tours of duty. As new recruits join a battalion, seasoned noncommissioned officers either gain rank toward senior billets or leave the Corps for civilian life. Although the exact numbers remain classified information, unit casualty reports suggest that about 50 separate rotations of Marine infantry battalions have been tested in combat over the last four years.

Using those statistics as a bare minimum, at least 3,000 corporals and sergeants have served combat tours as infantry squad leaders. Not to mention hundreds more who cut their teeth as combat replacements, convoy security escorts, translators, intelligence collectors or instructors for the new Iraqi army. When the histories are written, we will learn that the exact number of young Marines thrust into positions of leadership — amid an international media spotlight — is actually much higher.

Several Marines have already been convicted in the court of public opinion in the Haditha case. As military investigators evaluate these allegations, those on the sidelines should avoid castigation of an entire system because of the errors of a few. Consider the rush to judgment of 2nd Lt. Ilario G. Pantano, who was charged with murder at an April 2004 checkpoint shooting, or the nameless Marine in a Fallouja mosque who was seen on video killing an insurgent thought to have been booby-trapped. Both were eventually exonerated of all charges...

[Steve Blair]

Sadly, I think a great deal of this plays into the mainstream media's almost total ignorance of both the military and the realities of war, especially "unconventional" war like that we face in Iraq. The same pundits who have rushed to judgement regarding these Marines (who, it goes without saying, should be punished if found guilty) remain oddly silent when insurgents set off bombs in market squares and mosques.

One of the oddities of the United States, at least when compared to other nations, is our almost obsession with beating ourselves up in our own media. There seems to be a fixation with tarring ourselves with the worst possible motives while somehow finding good in our most twisted opponents. This of course makes us very susceptible to propaganda campaigns and misinformation (No Gun Ri and Tailwind ring any bells?).

If this incident happened in the way that it is currently being reported, then the individuals who are guilty should be punished, as should any superiors who might have covered up the incident. But to echo another comment, if this incident proves to be another No Gun Ri-style event, then those who have been beating the drums and getting the ropes ready should be punished for their rush to judgement. Even Saddam is getting his day in court. Why should we allow our Marines anything less?

(steps down from the soapbox and returns to lurking)

[SSG Rock]

The MSM seems almost giddy at the prospect of this alleged incident being substantiated. Hell, they've already substantiated it.

US troops commit "atrocities" "war crimes" and "massacres"
while the terrorists commit "executions" and "killings"

Its disgraceful.

[Strickland]

I have read and re-read the numerous postings on this thread, and can honestly say that I am shocked. I am shocked that the majority of comments either read: 1) we should wait and see what the official investigation produces, but the reality is there would be no investigation if not for Rep. Murtha, 2) the Marines are getting bad press from an overly liberal and unsympathetic press corps, or 3) that the press doesnt hold insurgents or terrorists to the same moral standard as US forces.

After 7 months, I am confident that the USMC has a general idea if any criminal act took place, by whom, and when.

Second, I hope that no one truly believes that US forces and insurgents are congruent entities, and thus their actions to be viewed in a similar fashion. Obviously, we hold ourselves to a higher standard. I would compare this with the situation in New Orleans post-Katrina. While I was not shocked that criminal or fringe elements of society looted stores or acted in criminal ways, I was confident that the police would not join them. Evidence that this happened was big news, and spirit crushing.

Next, Haditha has been the site of several large offensive operations over the past two years, thus for anyone to argue that these killings were the result of mentally exhausted troops who were continually restrained by overly restrictive ROE in the face of insurgent activity is counter-factual.

Perception + Truth = Reality; thus, the perception right now is that we are hiding something, and regardless of whether that is true or not, it is the prevailing perception, and thus - reality.

[Merv Benson]

but the reality is there would be no investigation if not for Rep. Murtha,

The investigation was well underway before Murtha used information he got in a briefing from the Marine Corps to wrongly accuse Marines of "killing in cold blood." He had nothing to do with prompting any of the investigations.

I don't understand why anyone would object to the principle of innocent until proven guilty. If these Marines are charged, they deserve an opportunity to make their case.

[Strickland]

I have no objections to innocent until proven guilty; however I repeat my original formula of perception + truth = reality. Based on this formula, O.J. and Robert Blake are guilty in the eyes of the public.

Trust I am VERY familiar with what happened at Haditha, and can only say that I am both ashamed and saddened by it. The Marines of 3/1 that committed these acts do not deserve the blind loyalty of the Marines that have gone before them or that are currently in uniform.

And for all those on the justice band-wagon, does this mean that all those "fighters" that were picked up in Afghanistan deserve to have their day in court rather than rotting at Gitmo? Are they innocent until proven guilty?

[slapout9]

Major Strickland, if you have ever seen the statue of the lady of justice you will remember that she is a lady "blind folded" and holding a set of scales to balance the evidence. The idea is to be blind to anything but the truth, the whole and nothing but the truth.

I was as embarassed as you about the police in New Orleans, more so I am aware of some of their actions that you are not, and it was bad!! And it was a disgrace, and the LE community will have to live with it. But live with it we will and try to learn and go on.

As for OJ maybe you remember another expression that came out of that trial, You cain't convict 5 million dollars, which turned out to be true. As for Robert Blake I couldn't stand to watch the trial. I watched Barretta in high school and I saw his movie "Electra Glide in Blue" ( about a motorcycle cop) while I was in the 82ND Airborne had alot to do with me becoming a cop.

I was at Ft. Benning while Lt. Calley was under house arrest as part of his sentence. I was a 17 year old private (kid) and I wondered what I would have done. That is why I remembered F.Lee Baily he defended Capt. Medina the other officer charged from Mei Li.

As for the justice bandwagon yes sir I am on that one. I have spent a good portion of my life on it and it gets bumpy!!! and you are right about the perception + truth = reality. But I believe and know sometimes the system does work and that is an idea I have sworn to protect.

Major that is an idea you swore to protect also. And you have risked your life to protect it. From your writings at this site I can tell you are a fine person, American, and Marine officer and I bet you go far as you should.

In closing sir let me be so bold as to suggest that you do everything you can to make sure this incident is not about blind loyalty or misguided perceptions, but blind justice.
All the Way, Sir (salute is encluded)

[SWJED]

11 June Washington Post - Marine Says Rules Were Followed by Josh White.

A sergeant who led a squad of Marines during the incident in Haditha, Iraq, that left as many as 24 civilians dead said his unit did not intentionally target any civilians, followed military rules of engagement and never tried to cover up the shootings, his attorney said.

Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, told his attorney that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. The Marine said there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.

"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," said Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."...

Wuterich told his attorney in initial interviews over nearly 12 hours last week that the shootings were the unfortunate result of a methodical sweep for enemies in a firefight. Two attorneys for other Marines involved in the incident said Wuterich's account is consistent with those they had heard from their clients.

Kevin B. McDermott, who is representing Capt. Lucas M. McConnell, the Kilo Company commander, said Wuterich and other Marines informed McConnell on the day of the incident that at least 15 civilians were killed by "a mixture of small-arms fire and shrapnel as a result of grenades" after the Marines responded to an attack from a house...

On Edit: I served with Wuterich's attorney in 1980-81. Puckett is a former Marine Corps Intelligence / Counterintelligence Officer who subsequently went into the USMC law program and now has a civilian practice. He is very smart and, from what I have gathered, a very good attorney.

[Strickland]

Major Strickland, if you have ever seen the statue of the lady of justice you will remember that she is a lady "blind folded" and holding a set of scales to balance the evidence. The idea is to be blind to anything but the truth, the whole and nothing but the truth.

I was as embarassed as you about the police in New Orleans, more so I am aware of some of their actions that you are not, and it was bad!! And it was a disgrace, and the LE community will have to live with it. But live with it we will and try to learn and go on.

As for OJ maybe you remember another expression that came out of that trial, You cain't convict 5 million dollars, which turned out to be true. As for Robert Blake I couldn't stand to watch the trial. I watched Barretta in high school and I saw his movie "Electra Glide in Blue" ( about a motorcycle cop) while I was in the 82ND Airborne had alot to do with me becoming a cop.

I was at Ft. Benning while Lt. Calley was under house arrest as part of his sentence. I was a 17 year old private (kid) and I wondered what I would have done. That is why I remembered F.Lee Baily he defended Capt. Medina the other officer charged from Mei Li.

As for the justice bandwagon yes sir I am on that one. I have spent a good portion of my life on it and it gets bumpy!!! and you are right about the perception + truth = reality. But I believe and know sometimes the system does work and that is an idea I have sworn to protect.

Major that is an idea you swore to protect also. And you have risked your life to protect it. From your writings at this site I can tell you are a fine person, American, and Marine officer and I bet you go far as you should.

In closing sir let me be so bold as to suggest that you do everything you can to make sure this incident is not about blind loyalty or misguided perceptions, but blind justice.
All the Way, Sir (salute is encluded)

Trust that I appreciate and respect all your comments. My comment about perception as it relates to justice was not included to suggest that it is a component of the judicial process, but rather, certainly important in the eyes of the public.

I will echo one of your statements. I know much more about this situation than has been released in the press, and am disgusted by the whole thing. I have listened to fellow Marines that I served with in Iraq and other places make excuses or try to produce sufficient justification for these actions, yet none are appropriate. Hopefully Athena will use her hand not holding the scales to push the process along.

The first Nurmeberg trial, or major war criminals trial, took 214 days. The Hadithah killings happened in November 2005 - or roughly 210 days ago.

[SWJED]

11 June Washington Post commentary - Morals in A Combat Zone by Major Peter Kilner, US Army.

The differing reactions to the alleged killing of noncombatants by American soldiers in the Iraqi town of Haditha reveal a troubling ignorance about the moral reality of war. Much of the national dialogue about the incident is being dominated by people whose approaches to making moral judgments on wartime actions are fundamentally flawed.

In one corner are those who are so convinced this war is wrong that they see only the bad things soldiers do in it. Such people are blind to all the good our soldiers and the war are accomplishing, and they revel in exploiting any incident of misbehavior by soldiers to smear all members of the armed forces and the entire war effort. By their logic, abuse of detainees by one platoon in one prison in 2003, or the alleged killing of civilians by one squad in one town in 2005, is conclusive evidence that the entire war effort is evil. These people are unable to reconcile the fact that unjust actions can and do occur within a war that nonetheless is morally justified.

In the other corner are those so convinced of the rightness of our cause that they refuse to acknowledge that our soldiers sometimes make choices that are clearly wrong and for which they should be held accountable. These people equate supporting the laws of war with being unpatriotic and disdainful of the troops. What they fail to recognize is that their implicit argument is both insulting to soldiers and corrosive to the foundation of the military profession. My fellow soldiers and I recognize fully that we are responsible for our individual actions, and that our permission to do violence to other human beings is constrained by our obligation to do so only when it is morally justified...

The circumstances of this war's battlefields are terribly complex. Soldiers find themselves conducting a wide range of operations, from war-fighting to policing, often during a single patrol, and those different operations require different principles for the use of force. It is often difficult for soldiers to discern which approach is appropriate and when. Not infrequently, a well-intentioned soldier ends up killing a noncombatant because of mistaken identity or some other factor caused by the fog of war. In such circumstances, we can say that the action is neither justified nor unjustified but that it is excusable. Not every wrongful death in combat is a war crime.

The good news is that well-trained, well-led soldiers can and do overcome the moral challenges of war and conduct themselves with great honor, and the great majority of American soldiers are well trained and well led. Although we fight an enemy who intentionally violates all norms of human decency and goads us to follow him into the abyss of wanton killing, America's soldiers continue to exhibit remarkable restraint.

What explains the difference between units that commit war crimes and units that don't? Leadership. This is the critical factor in ensuring moral conduct in war. When junior officers and senior noncoms train their soldiers to do what is right and when they maintain their composure and lead by example, their soldiers are able to retain their moral bearings despite the temptations and frustrations of battle...

[Merv Benson]

Is it possible for someone to post the actual Rules of Engagement for the Marines in Haditha so that we can compare them to the sergeant's description of his and the other Marines' actions? I continue to believe that the real question of fact for any ajudication of this matter is at what point should the troops have recognized that they were not dealing with an enemy camouflaged as a civilian?

BTW, comparing the length of a trial to the length of time it takes to investigate an event to see if a crime was committed seems a non sequitor. I think any comparisons of Marines to Nazis is just over the top anyway.

If these troops violated the rules of engagement and committed a crime, I think the military justice system will see that justice is done. Many of the "witnesses" to this event have told conflicting stories which will put their credibility at issue. I think the outcome of the case will turn on whether the events as described by Marines like the sergeant in the Washington Post story constitute a crime.

[Steve Blair]

I would also take issue with a comparison between this and Nuremberg. There are too many contentious issues still swirling around those trials regarding the conduct of the prosecution. I do hope, however, that we do not come out with anything that smacks of a "whitewash" such as was seen at Me Lai or with many of the NOPD stories (this is a police department that has had a horrible reputation over the years, so their behavior in the aftermath of Katrina really shouldn't have surprised anyone).

In reference to Major Strickland's earlier comment about the detainees at Gitmo, I do feel that the military and political leadership has been doing themselves major damage by simply sitting on these people without some sort of visable process to assess their guilt or innocence. As was pointed out, perception does play a major role in how the public views the justice (or lack thereof) of many actions. While the British may have been able to get away with detaining IRA suspects for years (and it's odd how this never comes up in discussions of how to handle insurgencies), our system (both the legal and press sides) really don't allow this to be done.

Speaking for myself, I would not say that I am rallying blindly to support the Marines who may have committed atrocities, but rather rallying to the system that is intended to give them a fair and open trial, and then punish them if they are convicted (and any who may have helped cover up this incident) to the fullest extent the UCMJ allows. In this I include senior officers, since one of the weaknesses of the whole Me Lai procedure was that almost every senior officer in the Americal knew what happened (this was clearly demonstrated in the original Peers report), but only the most junior lieutenant was seriously punished. If we are indeed to claim the higher moral ground, then punishment should fall heavily on those who had the responsibility to either prevent this kind of atrocity or to take swift and decisive action if such an atrocity does occur. Perhaps I'm something of an idealist here.

[SSG Rock]

I have read and re-read the numerous postings on this thread, and can honestly say that I am shocked. I am shocked that the majority of comments either read: 1) we should wait and see what the official investigation produces, but the reality is there would be no investigation if not for Rep. Murtha, 2) the Marines are getting bad press from an overly liberal and unsympathetic press corps, or 3) that the press doesnt hold insurgents or terrorists to the same moral standard as US forces.

After 7 months, I am confident that the USMC has a general idea if any criminal act took place, by whom, and when.

Second, I hope that no one truly believes that US forces and insurgents are congruent entities, and thus their actions to be viewed in a similar fashion. Obviously, we hold ourselves to a higher standard. I would compare this with the situation in New Orleans post-Katrina. While I was not shocked that criminal or fringe elements of society looted stores or acted in criminal ways, I was confident that the police would not join them. Evidence that this happened was big news, and spirit crushing.

Next, Haditha has been the site of several large offensive operations over the past two years, thus for anyone to argue that these killings were the result of mentally exhausted troops who were continually restrained by overly restrictive ROE in the face of insurgent activity is counter-factual.

Perception + Truth = Reality; thus, the perception right now is that we are hiding something, and regardless of whether that is true or not, it is the prevailing perception, and thus - reality.

Murtha's reaction to the Hadithah incident is self serving and disgraceful! Murtha's grandstanding on a Sunday Talk Show was political and opportunistic. The investigation was spurred by Time Magazine, not Murtha. Murtha commented on a TV interview that the investigation (already underway) would reveal that Marines overreacted and killed civilians in "cold blood" he then went on to use the incident as yet another reason we should withdraw from Iraq.

I agree, whole heartedly that US Forces and the terrorists/insurgents are not congruent entities. And that we hold ourselves to a higher standard, unlike our enemy. I say that part of holding ourselves to a higher standard is waiting for the formal, official results of the investigation before we convict these Marines, before we admit that an atrocity occurred. Admittedly, it is looking grim but still, we must wait for the results, because Murtha could be wrong. If the investigation reveals that the Marines murdered non-combatants, then we prosecute them accordingly, that higher standard again.

Perception and truth equal reality? I disagree, truth and facts equal reality, perception is malleable, Murtha knows this and he is trying to take advantage of it to mold the public perception for political reasons, and I find it repugnant. Murtha is well enough connected that he could have expressed his concerns behind closed doors to high level Marine leaders and held his comments until after the investigation, but then he wouldn't be able to strike while the iron is hot, facts be damned. Bottem line, we need to know what happend.

[Steve Blair]

I'd say it's pretty clear that Murtha is trying to get political mileage out of this in the same way that some in Congress did My Lai and other events during Vietnam. I've been trying as much as possible to avoid watching his bit in the dog and pony show and keep focused on the real issue (at least to me): did something horrible happen at Haditha and (if so) who will be punished for it. It's a given that the enlisted Marines will go down if proven guilty, but I'm waiting to see if the higher chain of command will be held accountable if it is proven that (as with My Lai) there was a cover-up.

But that's just my slant on things. Dry rot and ticket-punching were just two of the things that damaged the Army's efforts in Vietnam. I'd really hate to see those kinds of things crop up again on the same scale. We've already seen command micro-managing (using the video conference instead of orbiting command helicopters), and it would be tragic to see those mistakes happen all over again.