Quote Originally Posted by Uboat509 View Post
Anybody know what deaths he is talking about? To my knowledge the Abu G seven were not accused in any deaths. Other personnel elsewhere have been convicted of the deaths of detainees and they got even more severe sentences then these assclowns.

SFC W
Was not restricting myself to the Abu G seven. The loosening of restrictions combined with encouraging untrained MPs to "set the conditions" for interrogation has certainly resulted in the deaths of innocents elsewhere, however.

Telling is the choice of words; there was no 'hollywood' about it nor was there any question of 'tough guy' or any macho BS. Those are typical progressive or collegiate talking point words used in an attempt to belittle any non-metrosexual behavior in this touchy feely era.
Yes, there certainly is a question of Hollywood macho BS. None of the troika of Sanchez, Miller, nor Rumsfeld had any real-world experience with interrogation, coerced or otherwise. They simply believed that getting tougher would produce more good intel in the same way that the average viewer watching Jack Bauer shoot someone in the kneecap to gain accurate, actionable intelligence believes that Bauer's method works. The counterproductive and strategically disastrous results of this sort of "common sense" are plain for all to see and have been denounced by real-world professionals in the craft, including many on this very board.

And did I just get accused of being a metrosexual? I've been accused of being a traitor, a secret Muslim, and a rabid right-winger on various internet message forums, but this is a first. Seriously, I've never even bought hair gel.

People who have been trained to resist ordinary interrogation measures and who are aware of our normal methods (all available in open source as are 90% of our doctrinal pubs) can and will resist ordinary measures and harsher methods can be effective.
Real world examples of reliable, actionable intel produced through such methods, please.

I too regard it as a breakdown but it it indeed also a fundamental flaw. You've identified the problem, now suggest a solution -- not one that would be nice but one that can realistically be applied and work.
A solution would have been for the Commander-in-Chief to man up and accept Rumsfeld's resignation when Abu Ghraib broke. A message of command responsibility would have been sent and the idea that the United States was not just going to punish the little fish while letting their enablers swim off to cushy retirement would have been banished forever. Not to mention that the armed forces could have had Bob Gates at the helm that much sooner. Unfortunately, as in many other instances, the CINC chose another path.