Hand-to-hand in combat

[jcustis]

Interesting picture you have there on your new blog Norfolk. Royal Marines on Mt. Harriett?

[Norfolk]

Interesting picture you have there on your new blog Norfolk. Royal Marines on Mt. Harriett?

Close jcustis; Scots Guards at Tumbledown Mountain (couldn't find a good one of the RM except for the Landing at Port San Carlos - and it wasn't the right colours - pity.)

[jcustis]

I'm going to run a query at the Gray Research Center, but I do recall there being something on file in the archives about hand-2-hand in the Korean War context.

[Norfolk]

I'm going to run a query at the Gray Research Center, but I do recall there being something on file in the archives about hand-2-hand in the Korean War context.

Jon, I just noticed this blog on your post and took a look - nice work - is it yours (inquiring minds want to know...)?

[jcustis]

Jon, I just noticed this blog on your post and took a look - nice work - is it yours (inquiring minds want to know...)?

Sure is. I updated my sig line to put it out there for the chance of wider distribution. The avatar pic was graciously provided by the SWC's own AdamL. I've got a long, long way to go on the project, but the blog helps to keep me on some sort of plan of attack and serves as a journal of sorts for actions to be accomplished.

[sullygoarmy]

I'm a day late on this one but I'll throw a question out there regarding hand-to-hand. The Army's new combatives training emphasizes going to the ground with your opponent. While I find this to be an interesting exercise in PT gear on a matted gym floor, I wonder why we are teaching the techniques when, in reality, most of the hand-to-hand combat actions are going to take place with a soldier wearing full body armor, helmet and assorted other gear to weigh him down. So you want me to train soldiers to go to the ground with their opponent when, in reality, your opponent most likely will have little to no extra weight on his person, and quite capable of maneuvering away from our poor, heavily weighed down turtle?

Am I off base here or is the purpose of this new combatives program to teach our soldiers no kidding, useful hand-to-hand skills or to make them feel better about themselves and learn just enough to get their asses kicked in a bar fight?

[Ken White]

...
Am I off base here or is the purpose of this new combatives program to teach our soldiers no kidding, useful hand-to-hand skills or to make them feel better about themselves and learn just enough to get their asses kicked in a bar fight?

-- and to get kids who haven't played team sports or had much physical contact to learn a sprain, a cut lip or a bloody nose won't kill you.

Re: your first paragraph above, I may have been misinformed but I thought that grappling / Brazilian judo bit was just introductory and that later follow on training got them out of the "go to ground" mode. I sure hope so; with or without looking like a Ninja Turtle, the ground is the last place you want to be in a serious fight...

[Shek]

I'm a day late on this one but I'll throw a question out there regarding hand-to-hand. The Army's new combatives training emphasizes going to the ground with your opponent. While I find this to be an interesting exercise in PT gear on a matted gym floor, I wonder why we are teaching the techniques when, in reality, most of the hand-to-hand combat actions are going to take place with a soldier wearing full body armor, helmet and assorted other gear to weigh him down. So you want me to train soldiers to go to the ground with their opponent when, in reality, your opponent most likely will have little to no extra weight on his person, and quite capable of maneuvering away from our poor, heavily weighed down turtle?

Am I off base here or is the purpose of this new combatives program to teach our soldiers no kidding, useful hand-to-hand skills or to make them feel better about themselves and learn just enough to get their asses kicked in a bar fight?

We had a NCO in a sister battalion in Mosul back in 2004 kill an insurgent with his knife (the insurgent pulled a knife as well) after grappling on the ground. I believe this soldier had done some BJJ outside of the combatives program within his battalion, so he was better than the average bear, but I think the key is that the new combatives program recognizes the fact that most fights end on the ground. As they say, train as you fight, and the old school judo throw way simply wasn't realistic.

[William F. Owen]

Close jcustis; Scots Guards at Tumbledown Mountain (couldn't find a good one of the RM except for the Landing at Port San Carlos - and it wasn't the right colours - pity.)

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Read "Not mentioned in Dispatches" which shows that the "H2H" at Goose Green did not occur in the way many said it did. The UK has constantly and deliberately failed to differentiate between killing with or using a bayonet, and Fighting using a bayonet. IT's NOT the same thing.

There is a least one good account from WW1 where a Sgt in the Black Watch said the best thing about a bayonet was it allowed you to kill the German wounded, undetected and thus you did not have to treat them!